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Subject: Re: What are you talking about?

Author: Bruce Moreland

Date: 23:54:08 08/07/01

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On August 08, 2001 at 00:48:09, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:

>On August 07, 2001 at 23:54:53, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>On August 07, 2001 at 22:56:08, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>
>>>On August 07, 2001 at 19:01:55, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>
>>>>What bothers me when people say, "I saw these terms, but I choose to break them,
>>>>and this is alright because <fill in the blank>."  That's a transparent attempt
>>>>to *avoid* responsibility.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm uncomfortable with your way of looking at things. For instance, suppose
>>>there is law that requires exposing Jews for extermination. As you can see,
>>>there are good reasons that can "<fill in the blank>" quite well.
>>
>>This is an abhorent example.  You compare not stealing software with gassing
>>people.
>
>Terrible example, but I got Ricardo's point. Let's get a better example:
>In many (most?) places in US it is illegal for mothers to breastfeed their
>babies in public (and there are many other idiotic laws but this one will
>suffice). Even in a parking lot, inside your car.

We've gone far from the minor example that started this, but I'm willing to
travel this road for a while.

A better example is that you find out someone is in trouble for evading taxes,
so you steal their car, sell it, and and use the money to take a vacation.

Or perhaps you read that the local corner grocery is over-charging for baby
food, so you go in and steal a six pack of beer and have a party.

This is robbing from the imperfect and giving the proceeds to yourself.  Robin
Hood for the modern age.

>Some people breastfeed anyway just because they do not know the law or
>because they *believe* that the law is outrageous and even anti-constitutional
>or because righteously believe that their children are first.
>
>Would i judge them as doing something wrong? of course not, in fact I admired
>them to follow what they think is correct in their conscience.

This is clearly not the same thing as rationalizing what the law considers
stealing, in order to get a non-necessity for free.

>You present a very linear picture of what is right or wrong, based upon the
>written law. It is not that linear. If it were, we would have burocratic
>employees doing the justice rather than judges and jurors. There is always
>interpretation and there are always laws that contradict each other and many
>that contradict the Constitution. It is not an exact science, because the
>concept of "right" and "wrong" it is not black and white. There is a lot of
>greys.

There is no way any court is going to say that you have the right to pirate
software because the company is not nice.

>Particularly in US, there are lots of people that were willing to disobey the
>written law just to have the chance to go to court and show that the law is..
>illegal... (anti-constitutional for instance). Right or wrong Larry Flint comes
>to mind. Disobedience is not always a bad thing, and besides, US was built on
>disobedience (the second amendment is still there as a living proof).
>Chaos is not good, but a perfect order (monopoly) is also bad. When you have
>sumise people willing to accept everything you are in real trouble as a country.

I don't buy this.  Sure, if you think the law is wrong, break the law and face
the consequences.  That's social protest.  But there's no consequence here, it's
just a naked attempt to avoid paying.

If someone stole Windows or whatever and then contributed the purchase price to
a charity, maybe I'd buy that.  But I have a feeling that's a rare case.  These
people just don't want to pay.  Software is expensive and they'd rather steal it
than pay for it.

bruce

>
>Regards,
>Miguel
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Of course I wouldn't argue that anyone should follow such a law.  This can be
>>flipped around to make equally abhorent examples the other way, but I won't do
>>that.
>>
>>My point is that the terms are broken for personal gain, but there is some
>>excuse so that the person doesn't have to consider themselves a thief.  People
>>steal the software not as social protest against Microsoft, but to save money.
>>
>>These people who are arguing this would happily buy multiple copies of this
>>stuff if by some economic quirk there was a 200% rebate.
>>
>>>In the case of Microsoft, if one believes they are a monopoly, I can see how
>>>someone might believe they are justified in not following Microsofts dictates if
>>>they feel Microsoft does the public (and them) harm as a monopoly. Whether they
>>>are really justified (or whether it is "wise" to to defy Microsoft) is a
>>>different story, but I would not say they are way off base.
>>
>>I think that it's too convenient to say that if a company does this or that
>>objectionable thing, that it's okay to steal from them.
>>
>>"This company desecrates the rain forest, therefore I am morally justified in
>>stealing money from them."
>>
>>Come on.  The company's behavior is just a lame excuse to benefit personally.
>>
>>bruce



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