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Subject: Re: One easy mate to solve.

Author: Heiner Marxen

Date: 19:44:08 08/16/01

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On August 16, 2001 at 21:12:41, leonid wrote:

>On August 16, 2001 at 20:03:13, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>
>>On August 16, 2001 at 19:24:33, leonid wrote:
>>
>>>On August 16, 2001 at 16:47:03, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 16, 2001 at 12:03:51, leonid wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>>This position is intended to be solvable by every program, after only minor
>>>>>resistance.
>>>>>
>>>>>[D]1rrbbq2/3k4/1qqpnq2/3B4/2NPR3/1QB1KQ2/QN3PQQ/Q5QR w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>Please indicate your result.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>Leonid.
>>>>
>>>>Hello Leonid!
>>>>
>>>>You should try to find titles for your beautiful creations!
>>>>For this one I suggest "The King", for obvious reasons  :-)
>>>
>>>Hi, Heiner!
>>>
>>>Is my pleasure to see you once again.
>>>
>>>This last position is in reality Chinese character that signify "Day". I thought
>>
>>Hey, that is even better than I imagined!  Lovely!
>>
>>>that it is not correct that I use only Latin letters as position form. Actually
>>>today I put "Day" instead of "Middle" that is too much deeper in its solutiion.
>>>"Middle" will come next.
>>
>>I'll have to delay my work on it until I'm done with "US" :-(
>>Hopefully I will catch up, one day :-)
>>I will not miss any of your creations!  :-)
>>
>>>>I've not yet worked on this new creation of yours, since my K7/600 after
>>>>60 hours is still busy crunching on your corrected "US".
>>>>http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?183489
>>>>I know, you warned us :-) but I thought that would not apply to Chest.
>>>>That there is no mate in 8 needed only 40 minutes with an apparent EBF
>>>>below 10, so I expected less than 10 hours.  But this one is a hard nut
>>>>for Chest.  I have done some investigations into the variants Chest does
>>>>compute... and I'm not pleased.  There are lots of partial solutions
>>>>within the tree, and there are quiet white moves involved.  The trees
>>>>get really huge :-(
>>>>
>>>>So... that "US" appears to be a good example for a problem where Chest
>>>>does not do very well.  I will try to use it to improve Chest, but I'm
>>>>not yet sure, how exactly that improvement has to look like.
>>>
>>>Absolutely the same impression I have when I see some solutions that your mate
>>>solver find. Tried even to imagin some possible ways to push my solver farther
>>>but until now not went to my code. Still the most attractive for me is my dream
>>>to start Linux learning and eventually rewrite everything for 64 bits chip.
>>>Fascinating!!!
>>>
>>>Heiner, I tried "US" on few strong program and branching factor went there
>>>beyond 100. Maybe this will make you feel better.
>>
>>Umm, Uhh, 100+, well, yes!  Now I feel better indeed!
>>
>>>>Anyway, many thanks for your creations!  They _are_ helpful at least for me.
>>>
>>>They are helpful for both of us. Even if I was not that ready to restart my
>>>writing, because of your presence, I speeded my mate solver twice since you are
>>>here. Before I had no reason even to think that speeding mate solver have some
>>>sense.
>>
>>So, a bit of competition is quite refreshing, isn't it?
>>E.g. your "selective search" is already on my TODO list.  I want to be as
>>fast as you are :-) :-)
>>Also, I currently work on access to Nalimov EGTBs, in order to not be
>>outsmarted by those "normal" programs :-)
>>That competition makes me move, also.  Fine!
>
>Heiner, I am asking me on what program all those Nalimove's positions were
>calculated? Because if it use some program like we can see around, they miss a
>lot in speed when dressing all those mate tables. It could be that dressing
>table for 6 and 7 men is very realistic.

At Bob's ftp, where you can download those EGTBs, you can also get
"tbgen.zip", containing the C++ source for the generator program.
(The current release misses the source for the compression program)
ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB/

Some 6-piece tables are already calculated.  They are quite huge, already,
and you need a really large machine to compute them.  In general, 7-piece
tables are not a good idea with todays technology.
Look at a typical 6-piece table, say KQBKRR: its size is 2GB.
Multiply by 64, and you have the size of a typical 7-piece table.
There are smaller ones, like KNNKNN (2MB), but those are not very interesting.
Also, if you want to have _all_ 7-piece tables... that are a lot, already.
Do some math yourself, and you see what I mean.

And regarding speed: accessing EGTBs from even a fast disk can become a
problem speed-wise.  If I recall correctly, crafty has some code to reduce
limit the access frequency.  In the time for 1 disk read you can do a lot
of CPU instructions, which you miss, if you wait on that read access.

So, EGTBs do not solve all our problems :-)
And for your creations they are really useless :-)))

Cheers,
Heiner



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