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Subject: Re: Tiger doesn't understand; Fritz 6 not great either

Author: Roy Eassa

Date: 11:55:02 08/26/01

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On August 26, 2001 at 14:47:51, Roy Eassa wrote:

>On August 26, 2001 at 14:45:40, Roy Eassa wrote:
>
>>On August 26, 2001 at 14:40:33, Roy Eassa wrote:
>>
>>>[D] 8/2r1k2p/p3p1p1/3r1p2/8/1P3PP1/P2RK2P/3R4 b - -
>>>
>>>I reached this position as white recently, and after the game I used Gambit
>>>Tiger 2.0 to help analyze.  What occurred in the game was:
>>>
>>>1... Rcd7(?) 2. Rxd5 Rxd5?? 3. Rxd5 exd5
>>>
>>>after which I believe white should win (which I did).  I believe it's very bad
>>>for black to trade off both pairs of rooks, and best to avoid allowing white to
>>>exchange even one pair of rooks here because of isolating black's pawn.
>>>
>>>It appears that Gambit Tiger 2 on my Athlon 1.2 GHz does not really understand
>>>that after move white's move 3 above, white should win.  And it believes the
>>>position is essentially equal after white's move 2.
>>>
>>>Here is its analysis after black's move 1:
>>>
>>>00:00:00.9	0.22	9	168541	h3 Kf6 Rxd5 exd5 Rc1 Ke6 Kd3 f4 Rc6+ Rd6 Rxd6+ Kxd6
>>>00:00:00.3	0.16	9	184134	h3 Rxd2+ Rxd2 Rxd2+ Kxd2 e5 Ke3 Ke6 g4 fxg4 fxg4 h5 a3
>>>hxg4 hxg4
>>>00:00:01.9	0.12	10	445643	h3 Rxd2+ Rxd2 Rc7 Kd1 e5 Rc2 Rxc2 Kxc2 e4 fxe4 fxe4
>>>Kc3
>>>00:00:01.4	0.16	10	710893	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rc1 Kd6 Rc8 Rc5 Rxc5 Kxc5 Kd3 Kb4 h4 Ka3
>>>00:00:02.8	0.16	11	905910	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rc1 Kd6 Rc8 Rc5 Rxc5 Kxc5 Kd3 Kd5 g4 e5 gxf5
>>>gxf5
>>>00:00:03.0	0.16	12	1519152	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 exd5 b4 Ke6 Ke3 Ke5 f4+
>>>00:00:05.5	0.16	13	2286175	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 exd5 b4 Ke6 Ke3 Ke5 f4+ Kd6 a4 Ke6 Kd4
>>>h6 b5 axb5 axb5
>>>00:00:09.6	0.18	14	3833264	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 exd5 b4 Ke6 Ke3 h6 f4 g5 a3 gxf4+ Kxf4
>>>d4 Kf3 d3 Ke3
>>>00:00:18.1	0.20	15	7566502	Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 Ke3 g5 f4 gxf4+ Kxf4 d4 a3
>>>h5 Kf3 d3 Ke3
>>>
>>>
>>>but after 2. Rxd5, suddenly Tiger prefers black to recapture with the pawn
>>>rather than the rook, and its evaluation becomes worse for black.
>>>
>>>Non-Gambit Tiger behaves very similarly.
>>>
>>>Is the lack of endgame knowledge in me or the program, or is it something else?
>>>
>>>(Using 96MB hash; Not using table bases.)
>>
>>
>>Junior 6 takes 41 seconds after black's move 2 to even realize that white should
>>exchange the secon pair of rooks, and thinks the resulting advantage is tiny:
>>
>>3.Rc1 Re5+ 4.Kd3 Rd5+
>>  =  (0.07)   Depth: 6   00:00:00
>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 19   00:00:35  34856kN
>>3.Rxd5 exd5 4.b4 Kd6 5.a4 Kc7 6.Kd3 Kc6 7.Kd4 h6 8.b5+
>>  =  (0.08)   Depth: 19   00:00:41  39945kN
>>  =  (0.08)   Depth: 19   00:00:41  39945kN
>
>
>Fritz 6 doesn't exactly dazzle with its fast understanding, after black's move
>2:
>
>3.Rxd5--
>  µ  (-0.72)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>  µ  (-0.72)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>3.f4 Ra5 4.a4 e5
>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 1/4   00:00:00
>  =  (-0.09)   Depth: 4/8   00:00:00
>3.Rd3--
>  =  (-0.06)   Depth: 4/9   00:00:00  1kN
>  ³  (-0.47)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:00  154kN
>3.f4! Rxd1 4.Kxd1 Kf6 5.h4 e5 6.fxe5+ Kxe5 7.Ke2 h6
>  ³  (-0.44)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:00  169kN
>  ³  (-0.34)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:00  182kN
>3.Rc1 Re5+ 4.Kd3 Rd5+ 5.Ke3 Re5+ 6.Kf2 Kd6 7.Rc8 Rc5
>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 9/19   00:00:00  228kN
>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 13/30   00:00:16  12674kN
>3.Rxd5 exd5 4.Ke3 Kd6 5.Kd4 g5
>  =  (-0.12)   Depth: 13/30   00:00:19  14134kN
>  =  (0.19)   Depth: 15/25   00:00:35  23503kN


Shredder 5 seems best at understanding this, again after black's move 2.  It
chooses the right move in 11 seconds and, unlike the other engines, sees in 19
seconds that this gives a big advantage:

position:  0 1
  1.00	 0:00 	-0.41-- 	Rxd5 exd5 (2) 0.1
  1.00	 0:00 	-0.61 	Rxd5 exd5 (4) 0.2
  1.00	 0:00 	-0.26++ 	f4 Rxd1 Kxd1 (7) 0.3
  1.00	 0:00 	-0.06 	f4 Rxd1 Kxd1 (10) 0.5
  1.00	 0:00 	+0.13++ 	Rc1 (23) 1.1
  1.00	 0:00 	+0.13 	Rc1 (24) 1.2
  2.00	 0:00 	+0.06 	Rc1 e5 (70) 3.5
  2.00	 0:00 	+0.09++ 	Rd3 Kd7 (136) 6.8
  2.00	 0:00 	+0.11 	Rd3 Kd6 (171) 8.5
  3.00	 0:00 	+0.08 	Rd3 Kd6 f4 (503) 25.1
  3.00	 0:00 	+0.10++ 	Rc1 Kd7 f4 (677) 33.8
  3.00	 0:00 	+0.12 	Rc1 Kd6 f4 (870) 43.5
  4.00	 0:00 	+0.03 	Rc1 Kd6 Ke3 e5 (1.773) 77.0
  5.00	 0:00 	+0.04 	Rc1 Kd6 a4 a5 f4 (4.901) 113.9
  6.00	 0:00 	+0.04 	Rc1 e5 Rc7+ Rd7 Rxd7+ Kxd7 b4 Kd6 a4 (13.839) 203.5
  7.01	 0:00 	+0.02 	Rc1 Kd6 Rc8 Rc5 Rd8+ Ke7 Rd2 e5 (37.610) 293.8
  7.03	 0:00 	+0.03++ 	Rd3 Kd6 b4 h5 Ra3 Re5+ (62.602) 324.3
  7.03	 0:00 	+0.07 	Rd3 g5 b4 Rxd3 Kxd3 g4 f4 Kd6 (80.322) 344.7
  8.01	 0:00 	+0.07 	Rd3 g5 b4 Rxd3 Kxd3 e5 h3 f4 gxf4 exf4 (135.625) 368.5
  8.06	 0:00 	+0.08++ 	b4 Rxd1 Kxd1 g5 a4 Kd7 Kd2 e5 Ke3 g4 (199.705) 389.2
  8.06	 0:00 	+0.11 	b4 Re5+ Kd2 Rd5+ Kc2 h6 a4 Kf6 f4 Rxd1 Kxd1 (232.008) 391.2
  9.01	 0:00 	-0.03 	b4 Rxd1 Kxd1 Kd6 Kd2 Kd5 h3 e5 a4 e4 (364.458) 408.1
  9.03	 0:01 	-0.02++ 	Rc1 Kd6 a4 Rc5 Rd1+ Kc6 f4 e5 b4 Rd5 fxe5 Rxe5+ Kf2 Re1
(436.701) 406.9
  9.03	 0:01 	 0.00 	Rc1 Kd6 a4 Rc5 Rd1+ Rd5 Rc1 Rc5 (480.930) 404.8
 10.01	 0:01 	 0.00 	Rc1 Kd6 a4 Rc5 Rd1+ Rd5 Rc1 Rc5 (742.176) 409.3
 11.01	 0:04 	 0.00 	Rc1 Re5+ Kd2 Rd5+ Ke3 Re5+ Kd4 Rd5+ Ke3 Re5+ (1.681.189)
410.2
 12.01	 0:07 	 0.00 	Rc1 Re5+ Kd2 Rd5+ Ke3 Re5+ Kd4 Rd5+ Ke3 Re5+ (3.000.681)
410.0
 12.06	 0:11 	+0.01++ 	Rxd5 exd5 f4 Kd6 b4 g5 fxg5 h6 gxh6 d4 a3 (4.813.375)
414.8
 12.06	 0:12 	+0.16 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 Ke3 g5 h3 Kc6 a4 h6 f4 Kd6 (5.504.279)
423.6
 13.01	 0:14 	+0.41++ 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 Ke3 g5 a4 a5 bxa5 Kd7 f4 g4 h4 gxh3
(6.324.681) 431.4
 13.01	 0:15 	+0.50 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 a4 g5 Ke3 Kc6 Kd4 g4 fxg4 fxg4 b5+ axb5
axb5+ (6.847.727) 438.4
 14.01	 0:17 	+0.75++ 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 a4 g5 Ke3 Kc6 Kd4 Kb7 Kxd5 g4 fxg4 fxg4
b5 (7.965.133) 445.7
 14.01	 0:19 	+1.25++ 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 Kd3 g5 a4 Kc6 Kd4 h5 Ke5 Kb6 Kxf5 a5
(8.931.992) 452.9
 14.01	 0:20 	+1.25 	Rxd5 exd5 b4 Kd6 Kd3 Kc6 h3 Kd6 g4 fxg4 fxg4 h5 a3 hxg4 b5
gxh3 (9.283.532) 454.8
best move: Rd1xd5 time: 0:23.491 min  n/s: 461.294  nodes: 10.832.584



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