Author: Mark Young
Date: 07:20:12 08/30/01
Go up one level in this thread
On August 30, 2001 at 09:51:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 30, 2001 at 08:50:52, Mark Young wrote: > >>It has been suggested here that programs have made little progress in the last >>10 years other then hardware speed. Here is the list of top programs 6 years >>ago. Does anyone really think a program of 4, 6 or 10 years ago running on >>modern but equal hardware would have a chance of beating a Junior 7, Deep Fritz, >>Chess Tiger in a match. I think someone is pulling our legs. > > >I think someone can't read. "slow and steady" is not equal to "little" >I _clearly_ said that "there has been no revolutionary ideas in computer chess >in a long time. progress has been slow and steady." > >How you make the giant leap to "little progress" is a mystery only you can >answer. You will answer it for my Bob! Here is your Quote and the full text. Bob's Statement: "Part of the progress has been due to incremental changes to chess engines/evaluations/etc, part has been due to the hardware speed advances. Probably more of the latter than the former, if the truth is known..." "Based on what? Top programs of today _still_ seem to be unable to understand simple chess concepts like the pawn majority we have been discussing in another thread. I discovered, by bits and pieces, some of the knowledge in deep thought, and it was not "small" at all. Everyone assumes that the micros are much smarter... and that us old supercomputer guys simply depended on raw speed to win games. If you look at the game Cray Blitz vs Joe Sentef, from 1981, you will find a position that many programs today will blow, and that programs of 5 years ago would totally blow (bishop + wrong rook pawn ending knowledge). We weren't "fast and dumb" at all. Neither was DT, DB or DB2. Fast, yes. But definitely not "dumb". The "intelligence" of todays programs is mostly myth brought on by fast hardware that searches deep enough to cover for some of the positional weakness the programs have." "I've said this _many_ times in the past... I don't believe there have been more than a small number of "revolutionary" ideas in computer chess in the last 35 years. Hashing was certainly one. Perhaps null-move another although it is not clear that you must use null-move to be competitive as Rebel shows (and the DT/DB/DB2 machines as well). Iterative deepening with full-width search is another. Extensions are collectively another one, some more-so than others. Perhaps EGTBs is the most recent one. Everything else has been slow, methodical progress, something many won't like to hear. Part of the progress has been due to incremental changes to chess engines/evaluations/etc, part has been due to the hardware speed advances. Probably more of the latter than the former, if the truth is known..." > > >> >>If the suggestion that programs have not progressed much is correct, then we >>have been suckered by all programmers who offer us so called better and stronger >>version of their programs. >> >> >> >>THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-11-26 >>46104 games played by 146 computers >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Rating + - Games Won >> Oppo >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ --- --- ----- --- >> ---- >> 1 MChess Pro 5.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2458 45 -42 284 67% >> 2332 >> 2 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2436 33 -31 498 66% >> 2318 >> 3 Rebel 7.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2416 36 -34 416 63% >> 2325 >> 4 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2413 39 -38 340 61% >> 2334 >> 5 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2409 38 -37 357 62% >> 2325 >> 6 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2381 36 -36 376 56% >> 2338 >> 7 Rebel 7.0 486/50-66 MHz 2371 43 -41 288 62% >> 2282 >> 8 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2370 35 -34 419 58% >> 2311 >> 9 Genius 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2366 27 -26 750 65% >> 2255 >> 10 R30 v. 2.5 2357 79 -64 131 80% >> 2122 >> 11 Mephisto Genius 2.0 486/50-66 MHz 2343 26 -25 757 60% >> 2272 >> 12 WChess 1.06 Pentium 90 MHz 2327 36 -36 380 47% >> 2350 >> 13 MChess Pro 4.0 486/50-66 MHz 2324 27 -27 666 57% >> 2278 >> 14 Hiarcs 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2311 28 -28 626 55% >> 2273 >> 15 Rebel 6.0 486/50-66 MHz 2310 26 -26 724 58% >> 2254 >> 16 Chess Machine 30-32 MHz Schroder 3.1 2306 32 -30 546 68% >> 2175 >> 17 Meph Genius 68 030 33 MHz 2302 53 -52 179 56% >> 2257 >> 17 WChess 1.03 486/50-66 MHz 2302 30 -30 538 49% >> 2312 >> 19 Ch.Machine 30 MHz King 2.0 aggr/R30 off 2301 22 -22 1070 67% >> 2173 >> 20 Chessmaster 4000 486/50-66 MHz 2295 34 -33 462 66% >> 2175 >> 21 Chess Genius 1.0 486/50-66 MHz 2291 26 -26 736 57% >> 2241 >> 22 MChess Pro 3.5 486/50-66 MHz 2280 26 -26 731 56% >> 2236 >> 23 Mephisto Gideon Pro 486/50-66 MHz 2275 35 -34 421 62% >> 2187 >> 24 MChess Pro 3.12 486/50-66 MHz 2268 36 -34 438 69% >> 2125 >> 25 Fritz 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2265 26 -25 747 56% >> 2225 >> 26 Chess Genius 1.0 486/33 MHz 2252 33 -33 443 51% >> 2244 >> 27 Mephisto Vancouver 68030 36 MHz 2234 37 -34 451 73% >> 2059 >> 28 MChess Pro 3.12 486/33 MHz 2231 50 -48 208 60% >> 2157 >> 29 Kallisto 1.82-1.83 486/50-66 MHz 2227 26 -26 742 48% >> 2244 >> 30 Berlin Pro 68 020 24 MHz 2218 28 -27 676 63% >> 2123 >> 31 Kasparov SPARC 20 MHz 2213 28 -27 639 55% >> 2174 >> 32 Mephisto RISC 1 MB ARM 2 14 MHz 2206 23 -22 978 60% >> 2133 >> 33 Hiarcs Master 2.0 486/33 MHz 2205 46 -46 229 51% >> 2196 >> 34 Saitek RISC 2500 ARM2 14 MHz 128K 2196 23 -23 935 59% >> 2132 >> 34 Chess Machine Schroder 512K ARM2 16MHz 2196 27 -26 703 62% >> 2112 >> 36 Chess Machine The King 512K ARM2 16MHz 2179 32 -32 472 56% >> 2139 >> 37 Mephisto Montreux ARM 14 MHz 512K 2174 51 -46 238 72% >> 2007 >> 38 Mephisto Vancouver 68020 12 MHz 2163 24 -23 935 68% >> 2027 >> 39 Socrates 3.0 486/33 MHz 2145 49 -50 203 47% >> 2166 >> 40 Fritz 2.0 486/33 MHz 2138 30 -31 527 45% >> 2172 >> 41 Fidelity Elite 68030 32 MHz (vers.9) 2121 40 -37 372 73% >> 1952 >> 41 Mephisto Berlin 68 000 12 MHz 2121 25 -25 805 59% >> 2059 >> 43 Mephisto Vancouver 68000 12 MHz 2104 23 -22 971 57% >> 2056 >> 44 Novag Sapphire H8 10 MHz 2088 25 -25 787 52% >> 2071 >> 45 Hiarcs Master 1.0 486/33 MHz 2073 48 -48 214 48% >> 2089 >> 46 Fritz 1.0 486/33 MHz 2042 48 -47 215 55% >> 2009 >> 47 Nimzo 2.2.1 486/33 MHz 2036 46 -47 229 42% >> 2091 >> 48 Zarkov 3.0 486/25-33 MHz 2032 46 -48 232 39% >> 2111 >> 49 Rex Chess 2.3 386/25-33 MHz 2029 65 -62 126 59% >> 1964 >> 50 Kasparov Brute Force H8 10 MHz 2019 24 -24 860 47% >> 2044 >> 51 Novag Diablo 68000 16 MHz 2008 21 -22 1080 41% >> 2072 >> 52 Fidelity Mach III 68000 16 MHz 1994 14 -14 2404 52% >> 1980 >> 53 Complete Chess System 486/33 MHz 1986 47 -47 221 47% >> 2008 >> 54 Mephisto MM 5 6502 5 MHz 1981 20 -20 1264 49% >> 1985 >> 55 Kasparov President/GK-2100 H8 10 MHz 1975 29 -30 558 47% >> 1997 >> 56 Mephisto Polgar 6502 5 MHz 1971 17 -17 1693 42% >> 2031 >> 57 Mephisto Milano 6502 5 MHz 1966 24 -25 820 42% >> 2026 >> 58 Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 12 MHz 1926 22 -22 1020 58% >> 1872 >> 59 Kasparov GK-2000 H8 10 MHz 1897 29 -29 593 42% >> 1953 >> 60 Mephisto Modena 6502 4 MHz 1896 28 -29 615 41% >> 1959 >> 61 Psion Atari 68000 8 MHz 1882 18 -18 1487 44% >> 1928 >> 62 Novag Ruby H8 10 MHz 1878 30 -30 545 42% >> 1934 >> 63 Saitek Turboking II 6502 5 MHz 1868 23 -23 963 37% >> 1964 >> 63 Conchess Plymate Victoria 6502 5.5 MHz 1868 26 -27 701 40% >> 1941
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