Author: Uri Blass
Date: 11:41:09 09/10/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 10, 2001 at 07:56:31, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 10, 2001 at 06:37:57, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: > >>On September 09, 2001 at 21:05:23, Dave Gomboc wrote: >> >>>Is this a won position for Black? DJ6 doesn't seem to think so, but it might >>>just be wrong... >> >>Cray Blitz - Deep Thought II >>[D]4k3/7R/3p2p1/4bpB1/8/3R2PK/r6P/r7 b - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Crafty 18.08: >> >>49...Rb1 50.Rd2 Rxd2 51.Bxd2 Rb3 52.Bg5 f4 53.Re7+ Kf8 54.Re6 f3 55.Rxg6 Kf7 >>56.Rh6 f2 57.Kg2 Rb2 >> -+ (-2.06) depth: 14/31 00:02:11 84431kN, tb=113 >>49...Rb1 50.Rd2 Rxd2 51.Bxd2 Rb3 52.Bg5 f4 53.Re7+ Kf8 54.Re6 f3 55.Rxg6 Rb1 >>56.Be3 Kf7 57.Rh6 Rb2 >> -+ (-1.89) depth: 15/35 00:02:44 105884kN, tb=245 >>49...Rb1 50.Rd2 Rxd2 51.Bxd2 Rb3 52.Bg5 f4 53.Re7+ Kf8 54.Re6 f3 55.Rxg6 Kf7 >>56.Rh6 f2 57.Kg2 Rb2 58.Be3 Kg7 >> -+ (-2.00) depth: 16/37 00:05:46 217826kN, tb=1256 >>49...Rb1 50.Rd2 Rxd2 51.Bxd2 Rb3 52.Bg5 f4 53.Re7+ Kf8 54.Re6 f3 55.Rxg6 Kf7 >>56.Rh6 Rb2 57.Rh4 d5 58.Rh7+ Ke6 59.Re7+ Kf5 >> -+ (-2.14) depth: 17/39 00:11:33 428732kN, tb=4302 >>49...Rb1 50.Rd2 Rxd2 51.Bxd2 Rb3 52.Rh4 Kf7 53.Bg5 Ke6 54.Rc4 Kd5 55.Rh4 Kc5 >>56.Ra4 Rb2 57.Be3+ Kb5 58.Ra8 Kc4 59.Rd8 >> -+ (-2.29) depth: 18/41 00:31:10 1133497kN, tb=15025 >> >>I tend to prefer Crafty over Hiarcs in endgames, but I have >>no idea whose assesement is better here. But note that Crafty >>is already heavy in the tablebases here, and the score is >>going up for black... > >Note that it seems to me as a human that white has good chances for a draw. >White only ned to trade the pawns and to sacrifice the bishop for the passed >pawn. > >> >>Hiarcs is around -1.55 in all these positions, but doesn't >>hit tablebases yet. >> >>>Back to 47.Kg1 Ra1+ 48.Kf2 R6a2+ 49.Rd2 Bf6 50.Bh6 g5 >> >>Instead of 50. .. g5, 50. .. d5! and I get -2.26 in >>favor of black. >> >>>I suspect that 46.Re7+ Kf8 47.Rb3 Ra8 48.Rxh7 Rxa2 49.g3 is about the same. >> >>Hiarcs d5 with -1.9, Crafty -2.2 >> >>>42.Bh6 Bg7 43.Bxg7 Kxg7 might just be a draw, though. Hmm, 42...Rcxa4, I guess, then it's similar to before. >> >>Yes >> >>>I don't know, GCP, I don't think these pawn up endings deserve +2.25. But in >>>order for DT2 to settle on that kind of score, if it got to these variations it >>>must have assessed them as such. >> >>Crafty obviously disagrees with you, as does Hiarcs in some of the positions >>(although its score is usually more around -1.6, it drops down the lines). >> >>The question is of course whose assesement is more correct. >> >>I do think this shows that DT's assesement wasn't bogus or due to >>a bug. > >This shows nothing because there are millions of other lines that you should >consider. > >It is known that most of the lines that program consider are illogical lines >and it is clear for everyone who use common sense that deeper thought could not >get so deep (if you assume that there is a geometric average of 2 lines that it >needed to consider in every ply then seeing 40 plies forward from the root >position in the relevant lines is impossible at tournament time control game and >even 30 plies is impossible and it is clear that there are a lot of position in >the lines that you posted when the side has more than 2 alternatives). > >This is probably going to be my last post in this subject inspite of the fact >that I am not going to change my mind about it. > >I may argue about the question if the position is a draw or a win for black but >not about the question if deep thought could see +2 pawns because it is clear >that you do not assume that there was something impossible for Deep thought to >do in this discussion when I assume that there are things that are impossible. > >Deeper blue could not see 60 plies forward against kasparov in a line when >almost all the moves were singular or almost singular and you try to convince me >that Deep thought that was weaker could see more than it in a clearly more quiet >position. > >I do not buy it. > >Uri For the record I decided to give my Deep fritz long time to analyze the position after Bg5 Bg7 and here are the results Deep Fritz can see a clear advantage for white but even 18 plies search of the position 11 ply after the position before c5 can discover only positional things. Cray Blitz - Deep Thought II [D]6k1/1r4bp/r2pb1p1/2p1npB1/N7/1PP5/P1B2RPP/1R4K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 33.Nxc5-- -+ (-1.81) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 33.Nxc5-- dxc5 -+ (-2.37) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 33.b4! -+ (-2.19) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 33.b4! cxb4 µ (-1.37) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 33.c4! µ (-0.91) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 33.c4! ³ (-0.34) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 33.c4-- µ (-1.00) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 33.c4-- Nxc4 34.bxc4 µ (-1.16) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 33.Re1! µ (-1.06) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 33.Re1! Kf7 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 33.Re1 h6 34.Bf4 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 33.Re1 h6 34.Bf4 Kf7 ³ (-0.53) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00 1kN 33.Re1 c4 34.Rb1 Bd7 35.Re1 Bxa4 ³ (-0.62) Depth: 5/16 00:00:00 8kN 33.Re2! ³ (-0.59) Depth: 5/16 00:00:00 10kN 33.Re2! h6 34.Bf4 Bc4 35.Re3 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 13kN 33.Re2 h6 34.Bf4 Bc4 35.bxc4 Rxb1+ 36.Bxb1 Rxa4 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 29kN 33.Re2 Bd7 34.Rbe1 Bb5 35.Re3 Bxa4 ³ (-0.56) Depth: 7/21 00:00:00 118kN 33.Re2 Bd7 34.Rbe1 Bb5 35.Re3 Bxa4 36.bxa4 Rb2 37.Bb3+ c4 ³ (-0.59) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 334kN 33.Bf4! ³ (-0.56) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 836kN 33.Bf4! Bd7 34.Rd1 Bxa4 35.bxa4 c4 36.Re2 Rb2 ³ (-0.53) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 882kN 33.Bf4 Bd7 34.Rd1 c4 35.Re2 Kf7 36.Bxe5 Bxe5 37.Nb2 Rxa2 38.Nxc4 ³ (-0.62) Depth: 9/26 00:00:02 1388kN 33.Bf4 Bd7 34.Re1 Ng4 35.Rf3 Bxa4 36.bxa4 d5 37.Bb3 c4 38.Bc2 ³ (-0.66) Depth: 10/26 00:00:04 2992kN 33.h3! ³ (-0.62) Depth: 10/28 00:00:08 5164kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rd1 c4 35.Be3 Bxa4 36.bxa4 Nf7 37.Bd4 Bxd4 38.Rxd4 Ne5 ³ (-0.69) Depth: 11/29 00:00:15 9984kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rd1 Bxa4 35.bxa4 c4 36.Re2 Nd7 37.Be7 Bxc3 38.Bxd6 Nb6 ³ (-0.66) Depth: 12/32 00:00:41 27331kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rd1 c4 35.Be3 Bxa4 36.bxa4 Rb2 37.Be4 Rxf2 38.Bd5+ Nf7 µ (-0.72) Depth: 13/34 00:01:44 70231kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rff1 h6 35.Bf4 c4 36.Be3 Bxa4 37.bxa4 Re7 38.Rfd1 ³ (-0.69) Depth: 14/35 00:05:09 208826kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rff1 h6 35.Bf4 c4 36.Be3 Bxa4 37.bxa4 Re7 38.Bd4 Nd7 µ (-0.75) Depth: 15/36 00:10:05 413349kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rff1 h6 35.Bf4 c4 36.Be3 Bxa4 37.bxa4 Re7 38.Bd4 µ (-0.75) Depth: 16/41 00:54:31 2251192kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rff1 h6 35.Bf4 c4 36.Be3 Nf7 37.g4 Ng5 µ (-0.78) Depth: 17/41 02:06:58 5281997kN 33.h3 Bd7 34.Rff1 Bc6 35.Bf4 c4 36.Rfd1 Nd3 37.Bxd3 cxd3 38.Rbc1 Bxa4 µ (-0.81) Depth: 18/44 05:08:30 12922408kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 10.09.2001) Uri
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