Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:23:32 09/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 11, 2001 at 09:56:12, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On September 11, 2001 at 02:14:46, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On September 10, 2001 at 22:26:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On September 10, 2001 at 17:29:06, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On September 10, 2001 at 16:34:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 10, 2001 at 16:06:40, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 10, 2001 at 15:44:05, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 10, 2001 at 15:08:38, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>the game was Deep thought's game and not Deeper blue's game so it was not >>>>>>>>200Xfaster than yours >>>>>>> >>>>>>>At that event, we were probably running on a Cray XMP I would guess. I will >>>>>>>try to look at my old tournament booklets to see exactly what we used. If >>>>>>>it was an XMP, which is likely, then we were doing maybe 80K nodes per >>>>>>>second if we were lucky. >>>>>> >>>>>>I thought that Cray blitz could search 7M nodes per second. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This was on 1995 hardware (the T932). The game vs deep thought was well prior >>>>>to that hardware if I recall correctly. I am trying to dig thru a really thick >>>>>file to see if I can find out what we were using for that event. But it >>>>>definitely was not a T90 as we never played on a T90 in any competition. The >>>>>best hardware we used was a C90 which could hit about 500K nodes per second >>>>>peak. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>If it is not the case then I do not understand the reason that you believe that >>>>>>cray blitz (7M nodes per second) was weaker than Deep thought. >>>>> >>>>>I don't compare 7M cray blitz to DT. the 7M CB was in the same time-frame >>>>>as the DB/DB2 machines. And should be compared to them. >>>> >>>>I remember that one of your claims in order to convince people that Deep thought >>>>was strong was the fact that it defeated Cray blitz when Cray blitz is better >>>>than Crafty based on your games. >>>> >>>>If the real Cray blitz with 7M per second was never used in tournaments then >>>>the fact that Deep thought beated Cray blitz is not relevant >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>Ok.. Please pay careful attention for a few minutes. >>> >>>DT beat Cray Blitz on the best cray hardware available at the time. The last >>>time we played them we were running on a C90 at something around 1-2M nodes >>>per second. The statement that you and many others have made is "programs >>>of the 1980's and early 1990's are nowhere near today's programs, regardless >>>of how fast they go. I simply ran Cray Blitz on a current Cray, which happens >>>to be maybe 3x faster than the last machine DT beat us on. If you think a >>>factor of 3 is huge to a program with a branching factor of 5+, then you are >>>mistaken. And if you think that there is no way to draw conclusions based on >>>this match, you are mistaken again. >> >>The problem is that the last time is only one game and Cray blitz has bugs at >>least in part of the games. > >Whatever the last version was that played in an ACM event, that is the same >version I used against Crafty. I haven't made changes on that program since we >left the tournament that year. My next step was to start working on a new >program, which turned into crafty. > > > > > >> >>> >>>If Cray Blitz was just a "fast/dumb program" then that extra speed would make >>>little difference, in theory. >> >>I did not say that Cray blitz was only fast/dumb program but I guess that at the >>time they did only 80 knodes per second they were not better than Deep thought. >> >>When I thought that cray blitz was better than Deep thought I thought about the >>7M per second. > > > >I'm not even sure that was enough. It might have been even at that speed, >but I have no data. However, by the time the T90 was out, DB1 was also >available. 7M is nowhere near the speed of DB1. > > > > >> >> Deep Thought was very strong. Because Cray >>>Blitz was also very strong. >> >>I agree that it was strong relative to the opponents at that time. >> >> Against both humans and computers. It registered >>>the first win vs a chess master on record. >> >>It was strong relative to the opponents at that time but the comparison is with >>programs of today. >> >>Fritz3(p90) was also strong if you use results against humans and it achieved an >>IM norm on p90 when the best results of it was against the GM's when it had more >>problems against weaker opponents who bought it and prepared against it. > > >HOw about this: Cray Blitz beat the first master on record, running at the >crushing speed of 1K nodes per second. Care to take on any master today with >a program slowed down to _that_ speed? I believe that palm tiger has also good chances to do it if the opponent plays regular game and not anticomputer chess. I also believe that humans got better and a master today is stronger than a master at that time. CB had a good bit of "quality" before >it developed the "quantity"... > > > > >> >> >>>It registered the first win of an >>>"open section" tournament on record. It also won a couple of WCCC events along >>>the way. It's credentials are unimpeachable. That deep thought beat it at >>>every turn says something about them. >> >>I agree that they were better than their opponents at their time but they had to >>play only against inferior hardware and inferior software than the hardware and >>software of today(In their last tournament they had to play against p90 hardware >>and lost 1.5 points when in previous tournaments most of their opponents had >>inferior hardware than p90(Cray blitz's hardware at 1991 was better than p90 but >>only sligthly better and I am not sure if the software at that time was at the >>same level of the software of today). >> >>Uri > >The original cray-1 is superior to a P90. Buy a really large margin, in >fact. I know that Fritz3 could see more than 80Knodes per second on pentium90 but I assume that the right comparison in nodes is with Crafty and Crafty in p90 can see less than 80 Knodes per second but I guess that it is only 2 or 3 times slower. Uri
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