Author: Slater Wold
Date: 19:36:29 09/16/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 16, 2001 at 17:38:05, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 16, 2001 at 16:30:27, Bruce Moreland wrote: > >>On September 16, 2001 at 16:15:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On September 16, 2001 at 00:36:22, Bruce Moreland wrote: >>> >>>>Vincent emailed me and asked me to run these. I ran them on a quad 450 Xeon. >>>> >>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ3P1/3R1PKP/8 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>I get gxf4 until ply 10, after which there is a switch to b4, which is a bad >>>>move. This fails low to -3.88 in ply 11, and gxf4 comes back with a score of >>>>-2.48. >>>> >>>>Later in ply 11, f3 pops up with a score of -2.33. >>>> >>>>Up to here takes 89 seconds. >>>> >>>>f3 sticks until ply 14, at which point if fails low to -4.24, and gxf4 comes >>>>back with a score of -3.21, resolving after about 1/2 hour. >>>> >>>>In ply 15, gxf4 fails low again, and the hour ended with no resolution. It was >>>><= -3.46. >>>> >>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ2PP1/3R2KP/8 b - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>In this one, I have exf3+, with a score of +2.35 in ply 10. After 16 seconds, >>>>in ply 10, it finds Bh5, failing high to +2.80. >>>> >>>>Ply 11 was uneventful, but in ply 12, Bh5 failed high to +4.24. >>>> >>>>The score creeps up slightly, and the last score I got in the hour was +4.99, >>>>ply 15, after about 45 minutes. >>>> >>>>I'll run the first one again all night and see what happens. >>>> >>>>bruce >>> >>>thanks! >>> >>>It confirms already what i suspected. f3 is losing >>>way harder than alternatives! >>> >>>I do not understand why ferret needs a ply more to get -4.24 for f3 >>>than when after f3 is getting played. Possible to shine any light onto >>>this? >> >>I don't see that you can draw that conclusion at all, especially in light of >>this: >> >> ply milliseconds score line >>no 17 27657860 -433 -1221224784 gxf4 Qxf4 Kh1 Rh5 f3 exf3 Nxf3 Rh3 Rf2 >> Bd5 Rg2 g5 Qd3+ Qe4 Qxe4+ Bxe4 Nd2 Bxg2+ >> Kxg2 Rd3 Ne4 Rxb3 a4 Rb4 Nc5 Rb2+ Kg3 >> -- >>no 17 41753610 -499 666953819 gxf4 Qxf4 f3 Bh5 Kf1 e3 Re2 Rxd4 Rxe3 >> Rd1+ Re1 Qxf3+ Qxf3 Bxf3 Rxd1 Bxd1 b4 Kg6 >> Kf2 Bc2 Ke3 Kf5 b5 >>no 17 50832840 -494 -1178700567 f3 Bh5 g4 e3 Rd1 Bg6 Qc4 e2 Re1 Rxd4 Qxe2 >> Qxe2+ Rxe2 Rd3 b4 Rxa3 h4 Bd3 Rd2 Rc3 Kh3 >> >>Column 4 (node count) is broken and should be ignored. >> >>gxf4 failed low to -4.99 in ply 17, and f3 overtook it at -4.94. So mine would >>play f3 after 50,832 seconds. >> >>bruce > >I think the differece between f3 and gxf4 is a positional difference and we have >no logfiles of dep blue from that game so it may be interesting to look at the >following position > >[D]Rr6/5kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1 > >Here is Deeper blue logfile > >--------------------------------------- >hash guess Rb7b8,Guessing Rb8 > 8(4) #[Ra6](156)[Ra6](156) 156^ T=0 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 > 8(6) #[Ra6](128)########################## 128 T=3 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 > 9(6) #[Ra6](128)###########<ch> 'rb8' >[183 sec (main.c:1847)][cont]############### 128 T=10 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 >10(6) #[Ra6](158)[Ra6](158) 158^ T=17 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 >10(6) #[Ra6](158)########################## 158 T=34 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 >11(6) #[Ra6](156)########################## 156 T=99 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 >Rc8c7 rb7b8 >12(6) #[Ra6](162)[TIMEOUT] 162 T=192 >ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Rb8c8 be4d5 Kf7e7 ra6a5 Bd6c7 ra5b5P Ke7d6 bd5f3 Kd6e7 rb5c5 >Rc8a8 bf3d5 Ke7d6 > >You can see that the evaluation of Deeper blue at depth 12(6) was 1.62 pawn for >white. > >I am interested to know the evaluation of Ferret at depth 18 in order to compare >with deeper blue. > >It may be interesting to see also the evaluation of Ferret when you increase the >value of pieces that are not pawns to 150% of their normal value(programs may >find quickly that black gets 2 pawns for the piece after Ra6 Qe3 so in order to >prevent finding Ra6 Qe3 for these reasons I suggest to increase the value of >pieces that are not pawns) > >I ask for Ferret's evaluation at depth 18 because other programs do not use >singular extensions. > >I suspect that Ferret can find Ra6 Qe3 in both cases at depth that is smaller >than 18 and that it can also cahnges it's mind later to Qd7+ > >Uri Here is Nimzo 8's eval; it also uses SE. Nimzo 8 - W,S Rr6/5kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Nimzo 8: 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.24) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh8 4.Qxb6 ² (0.52) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh7 4.Qxb6 Rxb6 ² (0.64) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ± (0.89) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh7 4.Qxb6 Rxb6 5.g4 ± (1.05) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ² (0.60) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ² (0.61) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh7 4.Qxe5 ² (0.60) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 ² (0.61) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rd8 3.Ra7+ Kf8 4.g4 Ke8 5.c7 g6 ± (0.77) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 ± (1.02) Depth: 8/22 00:00:00 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 h5 4.Rd7 Be7 5.g3 Ke8 ± (1.31) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.Rb7 Rb8 5.Rd7 ± (1.36) Depth: 9/23 00:00:01 532kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.Rb7 Ra8 5.Rxb5 Ra3 6.Rd5 ± (1.30) Depth: 10/25 00:00:02 532kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.Rb7 Rc8 5.Rxb5 Ke7 6.Kf2 +- (1.44) Depth: 11/26 00:00:03 2522kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.Rb7 Rc8 5.Rxb5 Ke7 6.Ke2 +- (1.68) Depth: 12/28 00:00:29 30325kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.g4 h5 5.Rb7 Ra8 6.Rd7 +- (1.76) Depth: 13/29 00:01:32 96689kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.g4 h5 5.gxh5 Bc7 6.Rb7 +- (2.00) Depth: 14/31 00:02:39 166527kN (W, 16.08.2001) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And then I editing the piece value to 150% of it's original value: Nimzo 8 - W,S Rr6/5kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Nimzo 8: 1.Qd7+ = (-0.08) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qxb6 Rxb6 2.g4 = (-0.03) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.10) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.10) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.10) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ = (0.10) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Rxb8+ Qxb8 3.g4 = (0.19) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ² (0.44) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh7 4.Qxb6 Rxb6 ² (0.64) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ± (0.89) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh8 4.Qxb6 Rxb6 5.g4 ± (1.08) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ ² (0.63) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Qd7+ Kg8 2.Ra7 Bf8 3.Qe6+ Kh8 4.Qxb6 Rxb6 5.g4 Bd6 ² (0.58) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 ² (0.59) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.Rb7 Rb8 5.c7 ± (0.78) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1.Ra6 ± (1.03) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kg8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.g4 h5 5.Ke2 ± (1.04) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1.Qd7+ ± (1.05) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kg8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.g4 h5 5.Ke2 ± (1.04) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.Rb7 h5 ± (1.23) Depth: 9/23 00:00:01 861kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.Rb7 Bxb4 5.cxb4 c3 ± (1.29) Depth: 10/25 00:00:02 861kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rc8 4.Rb7 Ra8 5.Rd7 Be7 6.c7 +- (1.45) Depth: 11/26 00:00:04 3896kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Kf8 3.Ra7 Rd8 4.Rb7 Be7 5.Rxb5 Bxb4 6.cxb4 +- (1.69) Depth: 12/28 00:00:12 13364kN 1.Ra6 +- (1.94) Depth: 13/29 00:00:28 29837kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rc8 3.Ra7+ Rc7 4.Ra5 h5 5.g4 hxg4 6.Ke2 +- (1.95) Depth: 13/29 00:00:41 43514kN 1.Ra6 Qxc6 2.dxc6 Rc8 3.Ra7+ Rc7 4.Ra5 Rc8 5.Rxb5 Ke7 6.Ra5 +- (2.12) Depth: 14/31 00:04:35 303184kN 1.Ra6 Qe3 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Qxd6 Rf8 4.Qe6+ Kh8 5.Qe7 Rg8 6.Bf3 +- (2.32) Depth: 15/32 00:11:30 769135kN 1.Ra6 Qe3 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Qxd6 Rf8 4.Qe6+ Kh8 5.Qe7 Rg8 6.Bf3 +- (2.32) Depth: 16/34 00:26:19 1792190kN 1.Ra6 Qe3 2.Qd7+ Kg8 3.Qxd6 Rf8 4.Qe6+ Kh8 5.Qe7 Rg8 6.Bf3 +- (2.22) Depth: 17/35 01:22:39 5740900kN 1.Ra6 +- (1.77) Depth: 18/37 03:32:49 14934641kN (W, 16.08.2001) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Slate
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