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Subject: Re: Not so fast

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 00:37:26 09/17/01

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On September 16, 2001 at 22:42:23, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On September 16, 2001 at 18:24:35, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On September 16, 2001 at 17:38:05, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On September 16, 2001 at 16:30:27, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 16, 2001 at 16:15:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 16, 2001 at 00:36:22, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Vincent emailed me and asked me to run these.  I ran them on a quad 450 Xeon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ3P1/3R1PKP/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I get gxf4 until ply 10, after which there is a switch to b4, which is a bad
>>>>>>move.  This fails low to -3.88 in ply 11, and gxf4 comes back with a score of
>>>>>>-2.48.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Later in ply 11, f3 pops up with a score of -2.33.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Up to here takes 89 seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>f3 sticks until ply 14, at which point if fails low to -4.24, and gxf4 comes
>>>>>>back with a score of -3.21, resolving after about 1/2 hour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In ply 15, gxf4 fails low again, and the hour ended with no resolution.  It was
>>>>>><= -3.46.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ2PP1/3R2KP/8 b - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In this one, I have exf3+, with a score of +2.35 in ply 10.  After 16 seconds,
>>>>>>in ply 10, it finds Bh5, failing high to +2.80.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ply 11 was uneventful, but in ply 12, Bh5 failed high to +4.24.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The score creeps up slightly, and the last score I got in the hour was +4.99,
>>>>>>ply 15, after about 45 minutes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll run the first one again all night and see what happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>It confirms already what i suspected. f3 is losing
>>>>>way harder than alternatives!
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not understand why ferret needs a ply more to get -4.24 for f3
>>>>>than when after f3 is getting played. Possible to shine any light onto
>>>>>this?
>>>>
>>>>I don't see that you can draw that conclusion at all, especially in light of
>>>>this:
>>>>
>>>>    ply  milliseconds score           line
>>>>no   17  27657860   -433  -1221224784 gxf4 Qxf4 Kh1 Rh5 f3 exf3 Nxf3 Rh3 Rf2
>>>>                                      Bd5 Rg2 g5 Qd3+ Qe4 Qxe4+ Bxe4 Nd2 Bxg2+
>>>>                                      Kxg2 Rd3 Ne4 Rxb3 a4 Rb4 Nc5 Rb2+ Kg3
>>>>                                      --
>>>>no   17  41753610   -499    666953819 gxf4 Qxf4 f3 Bh5 Kf1 e3 Re2 Rxd4 Rxe3
>>>>                                      Rd1+ Re1 Qxf3+ Qxf3 Bxf3 Rxd1 Bxd1 b4 Kg6
>>>>                                      Kf2 Bc2 Ke3 Kf5 b5
>>>>no   17  50832840   -494  -1178700567 f3 Bh5 g4 e3 Rd1 Bg6 Qc4 e2 Re1 Rxd4 Qxe2
>>>>                                      Qxe2+ Rxe2 Rd3 b4 Rxa3 h4 Bd3 Rd2 Rc3 Kh3
>>>>
>>>>Column 4 (node count) is broken and should be ignored.
>>>>
>>>>gxf4 failed low to -4.99 in ply 17, and f3 overtook it at -4.94.  So mine would
>>>>play f3 after 50,832 seconds.
>>>>
>>>>bruce
>>>
>>>I think the differece between f3 and gxf4 is a positional difference and we have
>>>no logfiles of dep blue from that game so it may be interesting to look at the
>>>following position
>>>
>>>[D]Rr6/5kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1
>>>
>>>Here is Deeper blue logfile
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------
>>>hash guess Rb7b8,Guessing Rb8
>>> 8(4) #[Ra6](156)[Ra6](156) 156^ T=0
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>> 8(6) #[Ra6](128)########################## 128  T=3
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>> 9(6) #[Ra6](128)###########<ch> 'rb8'
>>>[183 sec (main.c:1847)][cont]############### 128  T=10
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>>10(6) #[Ra6](158)[Ra6](158) 158^ T=17
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>>10(6) #[Ra6](158)########################## 158  T=34
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>>11(6) #[Ra6](156)########################## 156  T=99
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7
>>>Rc8c7 rb7b8
>>>12(6) #[Ra6](162)[TIMEOUT] 162  T=192
>>>ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Rb8c8 be4d5 Kf7e7 ra6a5 Bd6c7 ra5b5P Ke7d6 bd5f3 Kd6e7 rb5c5
>>>Rc8a8 bf3d5 Ke7d6
>>>
>>>You can see that the evaluation of Deeper blue at depth 12(6) was 1.62 pawn for
>>>white.
>>
>>pawn in deep blue was 128 bob said:
>>  162 / 128 = 1.27
>>
>>I will let diep run overnight at it.
>
>
>Note that I preceeded that with "I believe" since Deep Thought used pawn=128
>and this was well documented.  I am not _sure_ about deep blue, however.

thanks, then it's probably 1.62 pawn

>
>
>
>
>>
>>>I am interested to know the evaluation of Ferret at depth 18 in order to compare
>>>with deeper blue.
>>>
>>>It may be interesting to see also the evaluation of Ferret when you increase the
>>>value of pieces that are not pawns to 150% of their normal value(programs may
>>>find quickly that black gets 2 pawns for the piece after Ra6 Qe3 so in order to
>>>prevent finding Ra6 Qe3 for these reasons I suggest to increase the value of
>>>pieces that are not pawns)
>>>
>>>I ask for Ferret's evaluation at depth 18 because other programs do not use
>>>singular extensions.
>>>
>>>I suspect that Ferret can find Ra6 Qe3 in both cases at depth that is smaller
>>>than 18 and that it can also cahnges it's mind later to Qd7+
>>>
>>>Uri



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