Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 14:29:33 09/17/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 17, 2001 at 14:31:30, Robert Hyatt wrote: Bob, take it from an FM, after gxf4 the game is very complex. yes it's lost, but it's *not* easy. And suppose you make a passer mistake, well in that case you still draw it, has happened before... However in the case of f3 e3 then it's a simplistic win. With Bh5 you get the same endgame but even better at the board because you threaten to create a mating attack after which it's completely game over in the endgame with a piece up! >On September 17, 2001 at 03:36:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On September 16, 2001 at 22:40:59, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On September 16, 2001 at 16:30:27, Bruce Moreland wrote: >>> >>>>On September 16, 2001 at 16:15:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 16, 2001 at 00:36:22, Bruce Moreland wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Vincent emailed me and asked me to run these. I ran them on a quad 450 Xeon. >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ3P1/3R1PKP/8 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>I get gxf4 until ply 10, after which there is a switch to b4, which is a bad >>>>>>move. This fails low to -3.88 in ply 11, and gxf4 comes back with a score of >>>>>>-2.48. >>>>>> >>>>>>Later in ply 11, f3 pops up with a score of -2.33. >>>>>> >>>>>>Up to here takes 89 seconds. >>>>>> >>>>>>f3 sticks until ply 14, at which point if fails low to -4.24, and gxf4 comes >>>>>>back with a score of -3.21, resolving after about 1/2 hour. >>>>>> >>>>>>In ply 15, gxf4 fails low again, and the hour ended with no resolution. It was >>>>>><= -3.46. >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]8/p4bpk/7p/3rq3/3Npp2/PPQ2PP1/3R2KP/8 b - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>In this one, I have exf3+, with a score of +2.35 in ply 10. After 16 seconds, >>>>>>in ply 10, it finds Bh5, failing high to +2.80. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ply 11 was uneventful, but in ply 12, Bh5 failed high to +4.24. >>>>>> >>>>>>The score creeps up slightly, and the last score I got in the hour was +4.99, >>>>>>ply 15, after about 45 minutes. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'll run the first one again all night and see what happens. >>>>>> >>>>>>bruce >>>>> >>>>>thanks! >>>>> >>>>>It confirms already what i suspected. f3 is losing >>>>>way harder than alternatives! >>>>> >>>>>I do not understand why ferret needs a ply more to get -4.24 for f3 >>>>>than when after f3 is getting played. Possible to shine any light onto >>>>>this? >>>> >>>>I don't see that you can draw that conclusion at all, especially in light of >>>>this: >>>> >>>> ply milliseconds score line >>>>no 17 27657860 -433 -1221224784 gxf4 Qxf4 Kh1 Rh5 f3 exf3 Nxf3 Rh3 Rf2 >>>> Bd5 Rg2 g5 Qd3+ Qe4 Qxe4+ Bxe4 Nd2 Bxg2+ >>>> Kxg2 Rd3 Ne4 Rxb3 a4 Rb4 Nc5 Rb2+ Kg3 >>>> -- >>>>no 17 41753610 -499 666953819 gxf4 Qxf4 f3 Bh5 Kf1 e3 Re2 Rxd4 Rxe3 >>>> Rd1+ Re1 Qxf3+ Qxf3 Bxf3 Rxd1 Bxd1 b4 Kg6 >>>> Kf2 Bc2 Ke3 Kf5 b5 >>>>no 17 50832840 -494 -1178700567 f3 Bh5 g4 e3 Rd1 Bg6 Qc4 e2 Re1 Rxd4 Qxe2 >>>> Qxe2+ Rxe2 Rd3 b4 Rxa3 h4 Bd3 Rd2 Rc3 Kh3 >>>> >>>>Column 4 (node count) is broken and should be ignored. >>>> >>>>gxf4 failed low to -4.99 in ply 17, and f3 overtook it at -4.94. So mine would >>>>play f3 after 50,832 seconds. >>>> >>>>bruce >>> >>> >>>This is part of the problem in trying to compare anything. Vincent is assuming >>>way too much. namely that f3 is worse. Based on some short searches from his >>>program. These need many plies to see what is _really_ going on. And trying to >>>make a point that f3 was horrible (as played by DB) is a mistake without some >>>real evidence. Your program seems to suggest the opposite, that f3 was the >>>_right_ move... >> >>May i note that after f3 as a human i win blindfolded the endgame with e3 >>as this wins a piece and goes to KRB for black versus KR for white. > >And may I note that after gxf4 _I_ could win _that_ game blindfolded. Both >are lost. And whether f3 is worse than gxf4 is still undecided. > > >> >>Kasparov of course didn't even look to Bh5 because e3 won blindfolded >>for him. >> >>Note at 16 ply score here for gxf4 is -3.975 versus f3 was lower than -5.xx here >> >>So the best proof i have is the game! >> >>I'm pretty amazed that many programs till today have a king safety which >>is not adequate for this position to see that f3 bh5 is getting simply >>and soon mated. >> >>Best regards, >>Vincent
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