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Subject: Re: KRBKPP

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 20:39:33 10/30/01

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On October 30, 2001 at 16:12:20, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:

>On October 30, 2001 at 15:54:06, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>The point here is that KRBP vs KRPP might seem to be the same as a KRB vs KRP
>>ending.  The KRB has no chance of winning in a real game.  There may be a
>>contrived position where the KRB side wins, but I haven't seen any in real
>>games yet myself.  I don't want _my_ program to trade from a possiblly
>>winnable KRBP vs KRPP, to a absolutely unwinnable KRB vs KRP ending, if I can
>>help it.
>
>This is true against a computer with EGTB's, against humans it is not exactly
>unwinnable. Particularly with "game in x" time control where it is closer to a
>win than a draw. Practical chances are very high, it is a tough endgame to
>defend unless you have plenty of time and know the theory.
>
>Regards,
>miguel


It isn't that hard for a computer.  I ran a few such tests a few years ago.

The first was KQ vs KR, with crafty playing KQ with no tablebases, against
Crafty with KR using tablebases.  Crafty with KQ won _every_ time within 50
moves, with no special heuristics at all other than "drive the king to the
edge and then the corner."  In fact, on a P6/200, it could win every time
given only a couple of seconds.

When Steven Edwards made me the KRP vs KR tablebase, along with the promotion
cases, I tried this again after watching Crafty play a KRB vs KR ending and
being unable to win it (I had never noticed that this is generally drawn).  I
tried tablebase KRB vs no-tablebase KR and the no-tablebase side had no
problems in drawing every game.  With very shallow searches.

I _have_ seen programs lose drawn endings.  Crafty and WchessX once played a
KR vs KN where Crafty had the KR (no tablebases back then) and it still won the
game.  However, I would not expect to repeat that against _any_ human or
computer I would really expect to have to play.  Maybe against a 1500 it might
win.  But not against a strong player.  And I am generally thinking of IM/GM
players as the competition I play against, which simplifies things a bit.



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