Author: Alessandro Damiani
Date: 15:23:05 11/07/01
Go up one level in this thread
On November 07, 2001 at 17:01:47, Christophe Theron wrote: >On November 07, 2001 at 14:51:50, Steven Schwartz wrote: > >>On November 07, 2001 at 14:01:31, Christophe Theron wrote: >> >>>On November 07, 2001 at 09:31:57, Steven Schwartz wrote: >>> >>>>On November 06, 2001 at 23:27:06, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 06, 2001 at 14:26:18, Steven Schwartz wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 06, 2001 at 14:13:25, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 06, 2001 at 13:59:41, O. Veli wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hello to all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have seen the following info about Star Sapphire: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Advanced SH7034 RISC processor (1M ROM and 256K RAM) and High Speed 20MHz energy >>>>>>>>saving CMOS TECHNOLOGY including Hash Tables. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How comparable is the RISC processor with DragonBall used in Palms? Since we >>>>>>>>have already 33MHz Palms, and strong programs such as ChessTiger and ChessGenius >>>>>>>>for Palm, does Star Sapphire have a chance to claim to be world's strongest >>>>>>>>portable unit? Can RISC processor and/or 1M ROM add to its strength for the >>>>>>>>deficiency in speed? Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not know how the SH7034 compares to the DragonBall. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>One thing I know is that you can FORGET ABOUT COMPARING THE MHz. It's >>>>>>>meaningless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The amount of ROM has no meaning either. I could use several Mb for Chess Tiger >>>>>>>for Palm if I wanted to, either for the program (code), the opening book, or the >>>>>>>hash tables. On some Palms I could use 16Mb. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not know how the Star Sapphire will compare to Chess Tiger for Palm, but >>>>>>>I'm already almost certain that it will be washed away by PocketPC chess >>>>>>>programs like ChessGenius running on the iPaq. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So its claim to be the world's strongest portable unit is bullshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have also received an ad today from ICD claiming its elo is between 2400-2550 >>>>>>>elo. That must be expressed in BS elo (Baby School). >>>>>>> Christophe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You may very well be right about the strength issue vs. the various >>>>>>palm-top computers. We won't have any firm answers for several months. >>>>>>It actually was not our intent to compare the Star Sapphire with those >>>>>>devices but rather chess computers. As I mentioned earlier, maybe using >>>>>>the word "dedicated" would have been a better choice. >>>>>> >>>>>>As far as the estimated rating... we based the 2400 to 2550 on Novag's >>>>>>estimate of 2550 and our belief that the computer was likely to be 50 >>>>>>or more stronger than the 2350 we put on the Sapphire II (the Star >>>>>>Sapphire's predecessor). >>>>>>Steve (ICD/Your Move Chess & Games) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The Sapphire II is rated 2012 by the SSDF. Maybe 2100 because the SSDF >>>>>subtracted 100 points to all the computers in the list, and while it was >>>>>justified for the top, it was less justified for the bottom of the list. >>>>> >>>>>IIRC the Sapphire II already had the same processor as the Star Sapphire. >>>>> >>>>>I have a hard time believing that the program would have improved so much that >>>>>it would now be 50, 100 or 150 elo points stronger. >>>>> >>>>>So I think your figures are overevaluated, even in USCF elo. >>>>> Christophe >>>> >>>> >>>>The ratings of chess computers have been a disaster for years. We >>>>have always tried to impart a little sanity into the situation by >>>>never listening to manufacturers. However, the Star Sapphire is >>>>about 6 to 8 weeks away, and we have not had a machine to test. So, >>>>we do the best we can. >>>> >>>>I recall that Enrique Irazoqui and Larry Kaufman used to tell us to >>>>add 180 points to the SSDF list to get USCF equivalents. If the >>>>older Sapphire II is rated 2012 by SSDF and if they subtracted 100 >>>>points to make the ratings more in line with reality, and if we add >>>>180 to get the USCF version, then that would put the Sapphire II at >>>>2292. >>>> >>>>Also, the Sapphire II runs on a "RISC-style" H-8 Hitachi chip whereas >>>>the new Star Sapphire runs in a 68EZ328 true RISC. I am not a wizard >>>>on microprocessors, but I believe that the "EZ" chip is much faster. >>>>Maybe, some of the members of the group can enlighten me on the >>>>differences. >>> >>> >>> >>>I don't understand how they can tell you such bullshit. >>> >>>The 68EZ328 microprocessor from Motorola is also called the "DragonBall" EZ. >>>It's the microprocessor you can find in many older Palms including the PalmVx. >>> >>>It is not the latest DragonBall. The latest is called DragonBall VZ, and it's in >>>the newest Palms, including the m505 and the latest Visors from Handspring. >>> >>>The DragonBall VZ is faster than the EZ. The EZ runs at 20MHz by default, the VZ >>>defaults at 33MHz. Both are overclockable but I doubt that the Star Sapphire >>>will have an overclocked one. >>> >>>The DragonBalls (68xx328) processors are not RISC processors at all. They have a >>>68000 core (you can find a 68000 in many older chess computers). I think it's >>>the first time in the world a company dares to say that the 68000 is a RISC. The >>>H8 was more RISC than the 68EZ328! >>> >>>So basically they sell an unit which has an outdated processor, which happens to >>>be the processor used in 2 years ago Palms. That's not surprising, given that >>>they announce the Star sapphire since 2 years. >>> >>>The current Palms have a faster processor, and this processor can be overclocked >>>(many users of Chess Tiger for Palm can make their Palm 2 to 2.5 times faster >>>with an overclocking utility). >>> >>>Owners of a Palm will have a 2x to 4x faster computer than the Star Sapphire. >>> >>>With this information in mind, I would not be surprised if the Star Sapphire was >>>actually weaker than the Sapphire II. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Additionally, the older II had 160K ROM and 129K RAM whereas the >>>>Star has 1M ROM and 256K RAM. >>>>We used to quote 2300 to 2350 for the Sapphire II while Novag was >>>>quoting mid 2400s, and we sold quite a few, and I recall no complaints >>>>about the playing strength at all. Based upon program upgrades (which >>>>we can only assume are in place because the Star will be almost three >>>>years newer than the II), micro-processor upgrades, RAM and ROM upgrades, >>>>suggesting that the Star will be a minimum of 50 to 100 points stronger, >>>>in my opinion, is not a stretch at all. But we shall see. >>> >>> >>> >>>It's not really a microprocessor upgrade. It looks rather like a downgrade. >>> >>>More RAM and more ROM does not guarantee more strength. >>> >>>50 to 100 elo points stronger would be a HUGE jump, especially on a slow >>>processor. And especially since we have not heard about the author of the >>>program since quite a long time. >>> >>>I think you should be more careful about the manufacturer's claims on this >>>device. >>> Christophe >> >> >>Let's not vote on this, but I AM a moron!!! >> >>When I took the data from the literature to respond to you, I >>looked at a letter that we received from Novag in November of >>1999. That is when they announced the Star Sapphire and still >>had the Sapphire II listed so I could compare the two microprocessors. >> >>However, the 68EZ328 is NOT what the Star Sapphire is being produced >>with now. The CURRENT literature says clearly (to normal people but >>not me) that it is an "Advanced SH7034 RISC processor (1M ROM and 256K RAM)". >>That was actually a link in our emailed promotion: >>http://www.icdchess.com/cpreviews/star.html >> >>So, the question now is how does this compare with the palm-tops, and >>does your opinion of its strength differ? >> >>As I said earlier, I know very little about processors and I proved >>that beyond a shadow of a doubt. >>Steve (ICD/Your Move Chess & Games) > > >:) > >But we are here to help! :) > >I do not know what the SH7034 is worth. Is there any additional information? > >I have read that it is a 20MHz processor. However I do not know how it compares >to the Palm's DragonBall at the same speed (comparing MHz only is risky). > >Anybody knows? > > > > Christophe http://www.hitachisemiconductor.com/sic/resource/japan/eng/pdf/mpumcu/e602062d.pdf
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