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Subject: Re: Can programs find the losing material moves in this corr game?

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 04:29:59 11/11/01

Go up one level in this thread


On November 10, 2001 at 18:11:49, Dieter Buerssner wrote:

>On November 09, 2001 at 14:03:47, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>I am interested only in the losing material moves in the main line(the analysis
>>inside the game is only to help programs to get the right conclusion)
>>
>>Luba kristol - Uri blass [B80]
>>[Blass,U]
>>
>>1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.Qd2 b5 8.f3 Bb7
>>9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.Bd3 Ne5 12.Rhe1 b4 13.Nce2 d5 14.Ng3 a novelty?
>>14...dxe4 15.Bxe4 Nxe4 16.Nxe4 Bxe4 17.fxe4 Bc5 [17...Nxg4 18.Bf4 e5 19.Qg2 h5
>>20.h3 exd4 21.hxg4 Rc8 (21...Qf6 22.e5 Qxf4+ 23.Kb1) 22.e5 g5 23.gxh5 b3 24.axb3
>>gxf4 25.e6] 18.Qe2 Qb6 19.Kb1 0-0 20.Rd2 a5 21.Red1 Rfd8 22.h3 a4 23.Ka1 b3
>>24.a3 Rac8 25.cxb3 [25.c3 Bxa3 26.bxa3 (26.Nf3 Bxb2+ 27.Kxb2 Rxd2+ 28.Nxd2 a3+)
>>26...Qa5 27.Kb1 (27.Nb5 Rxd2 28.Bxd2 Nc4) 27...Nc4 28.Rd3 (28.Rc1 Nxa3+ 29.Kb2
>>Nc4+) 28...Nxa3+ 29.Kb2 Nc4+ 30.Kb1 Rxd4;
>>25.g5 Bxd4 26.Rxd4 Rxd4 27.Bxd4 Rxc2] 25...axb3 26.Kb1 Qb7 27.Bf4 Nc4 28.Rd3
>>Bxa3 29.Rxb3 Qa6 30.Rdd3 Bxb2 0-1
>>
>>I am interested to know if it can be proved be only material evaluation
>>after learning that Rac8 wins more than 1 pawn.
>
>Analysing from back to front, in your main line, after 25...axb3 I get with
>material only evaluation (German piece letters: S->N, L->B, T->R, D->Q):
>
>  6.34	 0:00 	-1.60 	26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 (114.114) 183.1
>  7.01	 0:01 	-1.60 	26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 Kh7 (206.928)
>202.4
>  7.34	 0:01 	-1.60 	26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 Kh7 (347.345)
>210.1
>  8.01	 0:02 	-2.00-- 	26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Lxd4 29.Txd4 Txd4 30.Lxh6
>(549.219) 212.7
>  8.01	 0:04 	-2.68 	26.Df2 Sc4 27.Tf1 f5 28.Tc1 Sxd2 29.Dxd2 e5 30.Txc5 Txc5
>(871.896) 209.0
>  8.03	 0:04 	-2.67++ 	26.Sxb3 Txd2 27.Lxc5 Dxb3 28.Dxd2 Txc5 29.Th1 Da4 30.Dd8+
>De8 31.Dxe8+ Kh7 (1.051.210) 214.3
>  8.03	 0:05 	-2.60 	26.Sxb3 Txd2 27.Lxc5 Dxb3 28.Dxd2 Txc5 29.Th1 Da4 30.Dd8+
>Kh7 31.Te1 (1.125.349) 215.1
>  8.25	 0:08 	-1.60++ 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.590) 223.0
>  8.25	 0:08 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.591) 222.9
>  8.34	 0:08 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.600) 222.9
>  9.01	 0:08 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.601) 222.9
>  9.34	 0:14 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (3.429.304) 231.1
> 10.01	 0:14 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (3.429.305) 231.0
> 10.34	 0:26 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (6.199.044) 235.1
> 11.01	 0:26 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (6.199.045) 235.1
> 11.34	 0:57 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (13.757.574) 239.9
> 12.01	 0:57 	-1.60 	26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (13.757.575) 239.9
>
>Pawn value is 0.8, so this is 2 pawns. It is no proof, because I cannot see how
>to prove that with longer analysis white cannot win back material.
>
>I gave up to go further back, because I could not find a material advantage of 2
>pawns fast for your line 25. c3 Bxa3 26. Nf3 Bxb2+ 27. Kxb2 Rxd2+ 28.Nxd2 a3+.
>What I found is N+3Ps (for black) vs. R here only. But I also did not try for
>longer time.

I believe that 26...Bxb2 is the wrong way to prove 2 pawns and the right move is
26...Rxd2

I post the game again with analysis of 26...Rxd2 at the end of this post

The default yace could see 2.12 pawns for black after learning these lines for
more than 3 hours on p800 and here is the analysis after learning that 26.Nxd2
and 26.Rxd2 are bad:

Luba kristol - Uri blass
2r3k1/5pp1/1q2p2p/4n3/p3P1P1/bpP1BN1P/1P1rQ3/K2R4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Yace 0.99.56:

27.Nxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Kb1 a3
  -+  (-2.19)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
27.Bxd2
  µ  (-1.23)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
27.Qxd2
  µ  (-1.14)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
27.Qxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5
  µ  (-0.92)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
27.Qxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5
  µ  (-0.92)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
27.Qxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5
  µ  (-0.92)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
27.Qxd2 Nxf3 28.Bxb6 Nxd2 29.Rxd2 Bc5 30.Bxc5
  µ  (-0.87)   Depth: 5   00:00:00  17kN
27.Qxd2 Nxf3 28.Bxb6 Nxd2 29.Rxd2 Bc5 30.Bxc5 Rxc5
  µ  (-0.87)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  52kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Qxe4 30.Nxf7 Kxf7 31.Rd8
  µ  (-1.27)   Depth: 7   00:00:00  149kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Qxe4 30.Nd7 Qe3 31.Rc1 Qxh3
  µ  (-1.40)   Depth: 7   00:00:00  149kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Qxe4 30.Nd7 Qe3 31.c4 Rxc4 32.Ne5
  -+  (-1.42)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  419kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Qxe4 30.Nd7 Qe3 31.Rc1 Rc7 32.Nb8 Qxh3
  -+  (-1.57)   Depth: 9   00:00:02  791kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Rxc3 30.Qb1 Rc2 31.Rd8+ Kh7 32.Qxb3 axb3
33.g5
  -+  (-1.97)   Depth: 10   00:00:05  1995kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Rxc3
  -+  (-1.97)   Depth: 10   00:00:10  3600kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Rxc3 30.g5 Rc2 31.g6 fxg6 32.Qd4 Qxd4+ 33.Kb1
a3 34.Nxg6
  -+  (-2.37)   Depth: 11   00:00:16  6429kN
27.Qxd2 Bxb2+ 28.Qxb2 Qxe3 29.Nxe5 Rxc3
  -+  (-2.37)   Depth: 11   00:00:22  8507kN
27.Nxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Kb1 a3
  -+  (-2.19)   Depth: 11   00:00:23  9297kN
27.Rxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5 30.Qd3 a3
  -+  (-2.12)   Depth: 11   00:00:23  9297kN
27.Rxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5 30.Qd3 a3
  -+  (-2.12)   Depth: 12   00:00:32  12369kN
27.Rxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5 30.Qd3 a3
  -+  (-2.12)   Depth: 13   00:01:07  25181kN

(Blass, Tel-aviv 11.11.2001)



Luba kristol - Uri blass [B80]
[Blass,U]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.Qd2 b5 8.f3 Bb7
9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.Bd3 Ne5 12.Rhe1 b4 13.Nce2 d5 14.Ng3 14...dxe4 15.Bxe4
Nxe4 16.Nxe4 Bxe4 17.fxe4 Bc5 18.Qe2 Qb6 19.Kb1 0-0 20.Rd2 a5 21.Red1 Rfd8 22.h3
a4 23.Ka1 b3 24.a3 Rac8 [24...Rdc8 25.c3 Bxa3 26.Nb5 Bc5 27.Bxc5 Qxc5 28.Na3 Nc4
29.Nxc4 Qxc4 30.Qxc4 Rxc4] 25.cxb3 [25.c3 Bxa3 26.bxa3 (26.Nf3 Bxb2+ (26...Rxd2
27.Rxd2 (27.Nxd2 Bc5 28.Bxc5 (28.Bf4 a3 29.Bxe5 Ra8) 28...Qxc5; 27...Bc5 28.Bxc5
(28.Nxe5 Bxe3 29.Rd3 Bf4 30.Nf3 Ra8 31.Kb1 a3) 28...Qxc5 29.Nxe5 Qxe5 30.Rd3
(30.Qf3 a3) 30...a3; 27.Kxb2 Rxd2+ 28.Nxd2 a3+; 26...Qa5 27.Kb1 (27.Nb5 Rxd2
28.Bxd2 Nc4) 27...Nc4 28.Rd3 (28.Rc1 Nxa3+ 29.Kb2 Nc4+) 28...Nxa3+ 29.Kb2 Nc4+
30.Kb1 Rxd4;
25.g5 Bxd4 26.Rxd4 Rxd4 27.Bxd4 Rxc2] 25...axb3 26.Kb1 Qb7 27.Bf4 Nc4 28.Rd3
Bxa3 29.Rxb3 Qa6 30.Rdd3 Bxb2 0-1

Regards,
Uri



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