Author: Uri Blass
Date: 05:43:01 11/11/01
Go up one level in this thread
On November 11, 2001 at 07:29:59, Uri Blass wrote: >On November 10, 2001 at 18:11:49, Dieter Buerssner wrote: > >>On November 09, 2001 at 14:03:47, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>I am interested only in the losing material moves in the main line(the analysis >>>inside the game is only to help programs to get the right conclusion) >>> >>>Luba kristol - Uri blass [B80] >>>[Blass,U] >>> >>>1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.Qd2 b5 8.f3 Bb7 >>>9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.g4 h6 11.Bd3 Ne5 12.Rhe1 b4 13.Nce2 d5 14.Ng3 a novelty? >>>14...dxe4 15.Bxe4 Nxe4 16.Nxe4 Bxe4 17.fxe4 Bc5 [17...Nxg4 18.Bf4 e5 19.Qg2 h5 >>>20.h3 exd4 21.hxg4 Rc8 (21...Qf6 22.e5 Qxf4+ 23.Kb1) 22.e5 g5 23.gxh5 b3 24.axb3 >>>gxf4 25.e6] 18.Qe2 Qb6 19.Kb1 0-0 20.Rd2 a5 21.Red1 Rfd8 22.h3 a4 23.Ka1 b3 >>>24.a3 Rac8 25.cxb3 [25.c3 Bxa3 26.bxa3 (26.Nf3 Bxb2+ 27.Kxb2 Rxd2+ 28.Nxd2 a3+) >>>26...Qa5 27.Kb1 (27.Nb5 Rxd2 28.Bxd2 Nc4) 27...Nc4 28.Rd3 (28.Rc1 Nxa3+ 29.Kb2 >>>Nc4+) 28...Nxa3+ 29.Kb2 Nc4+ 30.Kb1 Rxd4; >>>25.g5 Bxd4 26.Rxd4 Rxd4 27.Bxd4 Rxc2] 25...axb3 26.Kb1 Qb7 27.Bf4 Nc4 28.Rd3 >>>Bxa3 29.Rxb3 Qa6 30.Rdd3 Bxb2 0-1 >>> >>>I am interested to know if it can be proved be only material evaluation >>>after learning that Rac8 wins more than 1 pawn. >> >>Analysing from back to front, in your main line, after 25...axb3 I get with >>material only evaluation (German piece letters: S->N, L->B, T->R, D->Q): >> >> 6.34 0:00 -1.60 26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 (114.114) 183.1 >> 7.01 0:01 -1.60 26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 Kh7 (206.928) >>202.4 >> 7.34 0:01 -1.60 26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Ta8 29.Kb1 Kh7 (347.345) >>210.1 >> 8.01 0:02 -2.00-- 26.Df2 Sc4 27.e5 Sxd2 28.Txd2 Lxd4 29.Txd4 Txd4 30.Lxh6 >>(549.219) 212.7 >> 8.01 0:04 -2.68 26.Df2 Sc4 27.Tf1 f5 28.Tc1 Sxd2 29.Dxd2 e5 30.Txc5 Txc5 >>(871.896) 209.0 >> 8.03 0:04 -2.67++ 26.Sxb3 Txd2 27.Lxc5 Dxb3 28.Dxd2 Txc5 29.Th1 Da4 30.Dd8+ >>De8 31.Dxe8+ Kh7 (1.051.210) 214.3 >> 8.03 0:05 -2.60 26.Sxb3 Txd2 27.Lxc5 Dxb3 28.Dxd2 Txc5 29.Th1 Da4 30.Dd8+ >>Kh7 31.Te1 (1.125.349) 215.1 >> 8.25 0:08 -1.60++ 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.590) 223.0 >> 8.25 0:08 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.591) 222.9 >> 8.34 0:08 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.600) 222.9 >> 9.01 0:08 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (1.795.601) 222.9 >> 9.34 0:14 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (3.429.304) 231.1 >> 10.01 0:14 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (3.429.305) 231.0 >> 10.34 0:26 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (6.199.044) 235.1 >> 11.01 0:26 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (6.199.045) 235.1 >> 11.34 0:57 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (13.757.574) 239.9 >> 12.01 0:57 -1.60 26.Df1 Ta8 27.Kb1 Db7 28.Sxb3 (13.757.575) 239.9 >> >>Pawn value is 0.8, so this is 2 pawns. It is no proof, because I cannot see how >>to prove that with longer analysis white cannot win back material. >> >>I gave up to go further back, because I could not find a material advantage of 2 >>pawns fast for your line 25. c3 Bxa3 26. Nf3 Bxb2+ 27. Kxb2 Rxd2+ 28.Nxd2 a3+. >>What I found is N+3Ps (for black) vs. R here only. But I also did not try for >>longer time. > >I believe that 26...Bxb2 is the wrong way to prove 2 pawns and the right move is >26...Rxd2 > >I post the game again with analysis of 26...Rxd2 at the end of this post > >The default yace could see 2.12 pawns for black after learning these lines for >more than 3 hours on p800 and here is the analysis after learning that 26.Nxd2 >and 26.Rxd2 are bad: I believe that 26...Rxd2 can help only material evaluation to find 2 pawns for black but the 2.12 seems to mean nothing because the default yace also can see 2.27 pawns for black after learning the line 29.Kb1 Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ and 29.Ka1 Qa5(these lines are after the posted line 26...Bxb2+ 27.Kxb2 Rxd2 28.Nxd2 a3+) I doubt if it can see more than knight and pawns for a rook with only material evaluation and I tend to believe that there is a big positional score here(maybe it can see knight and 4 pawns for a rook with only material evaluation but I think that it should be less than 2 pawns advantagde based on 0.8 for pawns and only sligthly more than1 pawn advantage). Finishing iteration 11 in every position was enough to see 2.27 and here is yace's analysis Luba kristol - Uri blass 2r3k1/5pp1/1q2p2p/4n3/4P1P1/ppP1B2P/3NQ3/1K1R4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Yace 0.99.56: 29...Qxe3 30.Qxe3 +- (6.52) Depth: 1 00:00:00 29...a2+ 30.Kc1 ² (0.64) Depth: 1 00:00:00 29...a2+ 30.Ka1 ² (0.55) Depth: 1 00:00:00 29...Qc6 = (-0.09) Depth: 1 00:00:00 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 1 00:00:00 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 2 00:00:00 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 3 00:00:00 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 4 00:00:00 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 5 00:00:00 13kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 6 00:00:00 37kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 7 00:00:00 104kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 8 00:00:00 287kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 9 00:00:02 914kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 10 00:00:05 2660kN 29...Qa5 30.Bd4 Rxc3 31.Bxc3 Qxc3 32.Nxb3 Qxb3+ 33.Ka1 Qc3+ 34.Kb1 Qxh3 35.Ka2 Qc3 36.Rd8+ Kh7 37.Rd6 Nc6 38.Rxc6 Qxc6 39.Kxa3 -+ (-2.27) Depth: 11 00:00:19 8507kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 11.11.2001) Regards, Uri
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