Author: Moritz Berger
Date: 08:39:38 06/01/98
Go up one level in this thread
On June 01, 1998 at 11:11:30, Thorsten Czub wrote: >On June 01, 1998 at 10:23:51, Don Dailey wrote: >>I get the impression everyone's tiny world was shattered when Fritz >>took the number one spot. Isn't it time we GROW up and just >>CONSIDER the remote possibility that your favorite program (no >>matter which one it is) might not be the top program? >Nobody of them wants to tell their doubts in a public forum because they >found it under their level to discuss with enrique or moritz in the way >the matter is discussed here. If this isn't a direct personal attack, I don't know what else could be ... >So the only guy arguing with them here is me. Since i have no problems >to transform myself into ANY level, even the meanest low level you could >expect. Wasn't it the other way round? I don't like Fritz above other programs. I really like e.g. Rebel's playing style more, in fact. Dirk likes Hiarcs more, in fact. Maybe Enrique likes M-Chess better, who knows. I have told everybody so many times over and over again. I only remember answering here to non-factual claims you made out of a sense that I will not let your false and destructive statements here (cheating, cheating, everybody's cheating) stand uncommented. I never claimed anybody was cheating, for example. I fully subscribe to Don's great statement and think he nailed it down precisely what went wrong in this debate. >So the question is not, can we stand reality. >The priblem we have is: we cannot reproduce the reality other people >want to convince us. ... so you create your own reality. You can reproduce every single move of every published game, but that's not enough, of course. Why? Because everybody's cheating. > >>People deserve credit for their hard work. If you >>don't have absolute proof of something, ANY accusations show >>an incredible lack of class and style. You have cast so much >>doubt on this result that you effectively snatch the >>satisfaction away from people who JUST MAY deserve to have >>it. You are wrong to do this and it's incredibly selfish. > >I am also working hard. I don't have an autoplayer at all. >Never in life you will have ABSOLUTE proof. >Even in a law-suit with death penalty in US it sometimes happens that >you killed the wrong guy. How should we come to 100 % or ABSOLUTE proof >in a discussion where it is not about dead or alive ? > >It is not a question of style or class. >Thats nonsense. If we cannot reproduce the marvellous results of fritz, >we don't have a class problem but a FACT problem. >And the thing does not change with calling the other side idiots. ... but call them bean counters instead? You argue that we are bean counters when we draw conclusions from 100 games when you draw opposite conclusions from 1 or 2 games? You don't even have enough beans to show but nonetheless count them maliciously: 1,2,3, Fritz sucks. > >>- Don >> >>P.S. Please do not come back with "why's", why did they do >> this? Why did they do that? Because the only answer >> that will satisfy you is that THEY MUST BE CHEATING > >I see no reason for your polemic comments. Polemic comments? Don's post was quite neutral, in my opinion. >You do as if it has to do with people not able to realize the facts. Yes, I feel the same about some people sometimes. >In fact it is exactly the opposite. We don't have their facts. >And we have machines too. We have software here too. >All we don't have is their results. >And we have tested programs for years now. And you refuse to talk about any single game from SSDF or Enrique, right? Because they used the "cheating" autoplayer. >You make it into a b/w love/hate debate. >I have no problems to like a program when it wins. Or to criticize a >beloved program when it fails. >I have always attacked genius, rebel, mchess or hiarcs or tiger or cstal >when it played bullshit, or when I thought this is not ok. >So it is exactly the opposite of liking or hating. > >I have attacked ed that rebel 6 and rebel7 were nearly the same, and >there WAS no big difference in playing-strength. >I have attacked mchess/marty for killer-opening-books here in public, >although anybody of you believes (even marty) i do love mchess [in fact >I do]. >But this does not stop me from saying something what I feel that is >TRUE. Why don't you say that you don't like Fritz' style? I would even partially subscribe to this! >Why the hell do you make a personal thing out of it and avoke it is a >hate/love thing. It isn't. You predicted that Fritz 5 would end up about the same like Fritz 4 did on the SSDF list. >I don't understand why you bring the discussion back to this trivial >point of prejudice. > >If you would be a moderator in a tv-show, I would BUH now. Since I think >you throw the whole discussion back into the beginning of the show. > >If this helps really ?!? >I doubt this. Obviously I think different. Why don't we just end this debate? It's getting pretty much nowhere.
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