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Subject: Re: RE: Endgame (EGTB) study with castling

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 01:26:04 11/28/01

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On November 27, 2001 at 21:21:08, Heiner Marxen wrote:

>In reply to: http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?196199
>Posted by Mike Hood on November 08, 2001 at 06:12:44:
>
>[The original message is not accessible anymore]
>
>[D]2k5/3P4/8/8/8/8/1r5p/R3K3 b Q -
>
>This is a KRPKRP position, suspected to be a mate in 18.
>I have downloaded some 5-piece Nalimov tables for this, namely:
>krpkr
>krnkr
>krbkr
>krrkr
>kqrkr
>i.e. krkr plus an arbitrary further piece.
>I had already all the 4-piece tables.
>The total amount of my EGTB files now is around 296 MB.
>
>Then I have asked Chest (current development version 3.23) to solve the
>mate in 18.  It was intended as a stress test for EGTBs.
>It turned out to be a quite massive computation: more than 15 days.
>This happened on my K7/600 with 350 MB hash, and additional 40 MB cache
>for the EGTBs (I have 512 MB real memory, and run Linux).
>
>Chest confirms that 1.Kd8 is a mate in 18, and there is no other way to
>achieve that:
>
>PV: Kd8 Ra8+ Kxd7 Ra7+ Kd6 Ra6+ Kd5 Ra5+ Ke4 Rh5 h1=Q+ Rxh1 Rb1+ Kd2 Rxh1 Kc3
>Rc1+ Kb4 Kd5 Kb3 Rc4 Ka3 Kc5 Kb3 Kb5 Ka3 Rb4 Ka2 Ka4 Ka1 Kb3 Kb1 Rc4 Ka1 Rc1#
>
>Here is the solution tree, 9 moves deep (without duals):
>
> Kd8 Ra8+  Kxd7  Ra7+ Kd6    Ra6+ Kd5    Ra5+ Ke4   ...+13
>                                         Rh6  h1=Q+ ...+13
>                                         Rf6  h1=Q+ ...+2
>                                         Rd6+ Kxd6  ...+1
>                                         Rg6  h1=Q+ ...+1
>                                         -*-  h1=Q#
>                             Rh7  h1=Q+  Rxh1 Rb1+  ...+13
>                             Rf7  h1=Q+  Rf1  Qe4+  ...+1
>                             Rd7+ Kxd7   =*=  h1=Q#
>                             Rg7  h1=Q+  Rg1  Qxg1#
>                             -*-  h1=Q#
>                 Rh8  h1=Q+  Rxh1 Rb1+   =*=  Rxh1  ...+13
>                 Rf8  h1=Q+  Rf1  Qe4+   Kd1  Qb1#
>                 Rd8+ Kxd8   =*=  h1=Q#
>                 Rg8  h1=Q+  Rg1  Qxg1#
>                 -*-  h1=Q#
>     O-O-O Rg2   Kb1  Rg1    Kc1  Rxd1+  Kxd1 h1=Q+ ...+8
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kc2  h1=Q   Rxg1 Qxg1  ...+8
>                                         Kd2  Qh2+  ...+5
>                                         Kd3  Qf3+  ...+5
>                                         Rd2  Rg3   ...+5
>                                         Rd3  Rc1+  ...+5
>                                         Rd4  Rc1+  ...+5
>                                         Kb1  Qe4+  ...+4
>                                         Kb2  Rg2+  ...+4
>                                         Kb3  Rxd1  ...+4
>                                         Kc1  Rxd1+ ...+4
>                                         Kc3  Rxd1  ...+4
>                                         Re1  Rxe1  ...+4
>                                         Rf1  Rxf1  ...+4
>                                         Rd5  Qxd5  ...+3
>                                         -*-  Qe4+  ...+5
>                             Rc1  Rxc1+  Kxc1 h1=Q+ ...+8
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+3
>                             Rxg1 hxg1Q+ Kc2  Qe1   ...+7
>                                         Ka2  Qb6   ...+6
>                                         Kb2  Qd1   ...+6
>                             Ka1  Rxd1+  Ka2  Rd2+  ...+4
>                                         Kb2  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Ka2  Rxd1   Ka3  Rb1   ...+2
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kb2  Rxd1   Ka2  Rd2+  ...+4
>                                         Ka3  Rb1   ...+2
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Re1  Rxe1+  =*=  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Rf1  Rxf1+  =*=  Rf3   ...+3
>                 Re1  Rg1    Kd1  Rxe1+  Kxe1 h1=Q+ ...+8
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kd2  h1=Q   Rxg1 Qxg1  ...+8
>                                         Re5  Qh2+  ...+7
>                                         Re8+ Kxd7  ...+7
>                                         Re2  Qd5+  ...+6
>                                         Re3  Qd5+  ...+6
>                                         Re6  Qd5+  ...+6
>                                         Kc3  Qf3+  ...+5
>                                         Ke3  Rxe1+ ...+5
>                                         Rb1  Rxb1  ...+5
>                                         Rd1  Qh2+  ...+5
>                                         Re7  Kxe7  ...+5
>                                         Kc1  Rxe1+ ...+4
>                                         Kc2  Rxe1  ...+4
>                                         Ke2  Rxe1+ ...+4
>                                         Re4  Qxe4  ...+4
>                                         Rf1  Rxf1  ...+4
>                                         Kd1  Qf3+  ...+3
>                                         -*-  Qd5+  ...+5
>                             Rd1  Rxd1+  Kxd1 h1=Q+ ...+8
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Rxg1 hxg1Q+ Kc2  Qe1   ...+7
>                                         Kd2  Kxd7  ...+7
>                                         Kb2  Qd1   ...+6
>                             Kc2  Rxe1   Kd3  h1=Q  ...+5
>                                         Kb3  Rc1   ...+4
>                                         Kc3  Re4   ...+4
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kb1  Rxe1+  =*=  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kb2  Rxe1   Kb3  Rc1   ...+4
>                                         Kc3  Re4   ...+4
>                                         Ka3  Rb1   ...+2
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Rf1  Rxf1+  =*=  Rf3   ...+3
>                 Rf1  Rg1    Rd1  Rxd1+  Kxd1 h1=Q+ ...+8
>                                         -*-  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Rxg1 hxg1Q+ Kc2  Qe1   ...+7
>                                         Kd2  Kxd7  ...+7
>                                         Kb2  Qd1   ...+6
>                             Kb2  Rxf1   Kc3  Rf3+  ...+5
>                                         Kb3  Rc1   ...+4
>                                         Ka3  Rb1   ...+2
>                                         -*-  Rf3   ...+3
>                             Kc2  Rxf1   Kc3  Rf3+  ...+5
>                                         Kd3  Rf3+  ...+5
>                                         Kb3  Rc1   ...+4
>                                         -*-  Rf3   ...+3
>                             Kd2  Rxf1   Ke3  h1=Q  ...+5
>                                         Ke2  h1=Q  ...+4
>                                         Kc2  Rf3   ...+3
>                                         -*-  Rf3+  ...+5
>                             Kd1  Rxf1+  Ke2  h1=Q  ...+4
>                                         -*-  Rf3   ...+3
>                             Re1  Rxe1+  =*=  h1=Q  ...+4
>                             Kb1  Rxf1+  =*=  Rf3   ...+3
>                 Rh1  Rg1+   Rxg1 hxg1Q+ Kc2  Qe1   ...+7
>                                         Kd2  Kxd7  ...+7
>                                         Kb2  Qd1   ...+6
>                             Kb2  Rxh1   Kc2  Rg1   ...+5
>                                         Kc3  Rg1   ...+5
>                                         Ka3  Rb1   ...+2
>                                         -*-  Rc1   ...+4
>                             Kc2  Rxh1   Kb3  Rc1   ...+4
>                                         -*-  Rg1   ...+5
>                             Kd2  Rxh1   =*=  Rg1   ...+5
>                 Rd2  h1=Q+  Kc2  Rg3    Kb2  Qf3   ...+4
>                                         Re2  Qf3   ...+4
>                                         Rf2  Qe4+  ...+4
>                                         Rd3  Qe4   ...+3
>                                         Rd5  Qxd5  ...+2
>                                         Rg2  Qxg2+ ...+2
>                                         Rh2  Qxh2+ ...+1
>                                         -*-  Qh7+  ...+4
>                             Kb2  Rxd2+  Kb3  Qc1   ...+2
>                                         Kc3  Qc1+  ...+2
>                                         Ka3  Qb1   ...+1
>                             Rd1  Qh6+   Kb1  Qb6+  ...+1
>                                         Rd2  Qxd2+ ...+1
>                 Rg1  hxg1Q#
>                 -*-  h1=Q+  Rd1  Qh6+   Kb1  Qb6+  ...+1
>                                         Rd2  Qxd2+ ...+1
>     -*-   h1=Q#
>
>Total Time (user) = 1337207.05 sec (22286.8 min) (371.4 hrs) (15.5 days)
>
>From the refutation table...
>
>refu  1: Kd8     Ra8+    [  16-]
>solu          4: Ra8+    [  17+]
>solu          5: Rc1     [   1+]
>solu          6: Ra7     [   1+]
>solu          7: Rd1     [   1+]
>solu          8: Ra3     [   1+]
>solu          9: Ra4     [   1+]
>solu         10: Ra5     [   1+]
>solu         11: Ra6     [   1+]
>solu         12: Kf1     [   1+]
>solu         13: Kd1     [   1+]
>solu         14: O-O-O   [  12+]
>solu         15: Rb1     [   1+]
>solu         16: Ra2     [   1+]
>refu  2: Kb8     d8=Q+   [  17-]
>refu  3: Kc7     d8=Q+   [  17-]
>refu  4: Kb7     d8=N+   [  17-]
>solu          1: d8=Q    [   1+]
>refu  5: Kxd7    O-O-O+  [  63-]
>solu          2: Rd1+    [   6+]
>solu          3: Ra7+    [  16+]
>
>... we see, that 1.Kxd7 does not succeed in 63 moves, i.e. does not win at all.
>Well, that is a direct EGTB hit.
>
>Quite interesting (and unexpected) is, what part of the analysis took most
>of the time.  99.9961% of the time were spent on  1.Kb7 d8=N+ ... wow!

bad order of moves
I believe that it may be better to use some short search to find the best move
based on only material evaluation.

You are going to find that 0-0-0+ is better than d8N
proving that white has a forced mate by 0-0-0(you do not need to find the
shortest mate for this purpose) is doable in a few minutes and it means that
chest can replace 99.9961% of the time by few minutes and solve the problem in
few minutes after you improve the program.

Another possible test for chest may be to find the shortest mate for white after
Kb7?? or to find mate for black after Kb7?? d8N+??

I also suspect that using more tablebases like the kqrkn could help.

Uri



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