Author: Uri Blass
Date: 12:35:47 12/03/01
Go up one level in this thread
On December 03, 2001 at 11:23:41, Slater Wold wrote: >On December 03, 2001 at 11:02:20, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: > >> >>So, to summarize: >> >>I am right because I am right and you are wrong. >> >>-- >>GCP > >I've been here for over 2 years, and that has to be the most ridiculous post >I've ever seen. > >Bottom line: > >You said no program could see it; and Dann found one. Regardless of why it >chooses this line, it found it. Period. Your arguement (to a sensible person) >ends there. > >If you'd like to see some positions that computers 1.) cannot understand and/or >2.) cannot solve, I recommend the Nolot suite. I also posted positions that the program that I have cannot understand but I do not do a big noise out of them. My experience in correspondence games tell me that programs are not god and I posted at least one position when all the programs that I have do not understand. This position could happen in my correspondence game against Yoav dothan but I rejected the computer moves that lead to it Uri Blass - Yoav duthan [D]bq4r1/4b2k/4p3/1P2nP2/P1P3pp/4BP1P/1N1R1QP1/7K w - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 38.Qxh4+-- -+ (-2.97) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 +- (1.97) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 +- (1.97) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 +- (1.97) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 +- (1.97) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 +- (1.97) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00 38.fxg4! +- (2.28) Depth: 3/13 00:00:00 1kN 38.fxg4! Qc7 39.c5 exf5 +- (2.59) Depth: 3/13 00:00:00 1kN 38.fxg4 exf5 39.Qxf5+ Kg7 40.c5 Bf6 +- (2.44) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN 38.fxg4 Rf8 39.c5 exf5 40.gxf5 Bf6 +- (2.34) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 17kN 38.fxg4 Rf8 39.c5 exf5 40.g5 Ng6 +- (2.28) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 34kN 38.fxg4! +- (2.59) Depth: 7/21 00:00:02 148kN 38.fxg4! Kg7 39.Bd4 Rf8 40.Qe3 Bf6 41.fxe6 +- (2.94) Depth: 7/21 00:00:02 299kN 38.fxg4! +- (3.25) Depth: 8/25 00:00:03 774kN 38.fxg4! +- (3.56) Depth: 9/25 00:00:06 2482kN 38.fxg4! Rf8 39.Bf4 exf5 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Qe8 42.Rc7 +- (3.66) Depth: 9/27 00:00:07 3450kN 38.fxg4-- +- (3.34) Depth: 10/28 00:00:10 5019kN 38.fxg4-- Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ +- (2.66) Depth: 10/28 00:00:11 5885kN 38.fxg4 Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ +- (2.69) Depth: 11/28 00:00:22 12919kN 38.fxg4 Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qe8 43.fxe6 Qg6+ +- (2.56) Depth: 12/31 00:00:45 27664kN 38.fxg4-- +- (2.25) Depth: 13/34 00:01:20 51134kN 38.fxg4-- +- (2.25) Depth: 13/35 00:01:35 61764kN 38.fxg4 Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 40.fxe6 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Rxg2 Qe5 43.Bg1 h3 +- (2.03) Depth: 14/34 00:03:50 155795kN 38.fxg4-- +- (1.72) Depth: 15/37 00:09:08 374814kN 38.fxg4-- +- (1.72) Depth: 15/43 00:12:05 503263kN 38.fxg4-- +- (1.41) Depth: 16/40 00:37:12 1551406kN 38.fxg4-- Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 40.fxe6 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Rxg2 Qe5 43.Nd1 Qxe6 ² (0.66) Depth: 16/42 00:43:29 1818534kN 38.Ba7! ² (0.69) Depth: 16/43 01:16:33 3216423kN 38.Ba7! Qf8 39.fxg4 Nxg4 40.hxg4 Rxg4 41.Rd7 Rxg2 42.Qxg2 Bxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qg7+ ± (1.38) Depth: 16/43 01:49:03 4572984kN 38.Ba7 Qf8 39.fxg4 Nxg4 40.hxg4 Rxg4 41.Rd7 Rxg2 42.Qxg2 Bxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qg7+ ± (1.25) Depth: 17/41 02:38:45 6711525kN 38.Ba7-- ± (0.94) Depth: 18/42 04:24:29 11134845kN 38.Ba7-- Qf8 39.fxg4 Nxg4 40.hxg4 Rxg4 41.Rd7 Rxg2 42.Qxg2 Bxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Qxf5 ± (0.84) Depth: 18/49 08:20:51 22736392kN 38.f6! ± (0.88) Depth: 18/49 10:17:09 27635024kN I followed Fritz's line after 38.f6 and found 38.f6 Nxf3 39.gxf3 Bxf3+ 40.Kg1 Bxf6 41.Rd7 Kh8 42.Kf1 Qg3 43.Qxg3 hxg3 44.h4 Bxb2 0-1 I also analyzed 38.fxg4 Nxg4 and 38.Ba7 Qf8 and I believe that white is losing in all the lines. yace understands nothing from these lines and I also tried Fritz and Tiger(Tiger is better than Fritz here but still does not understand much but at least it can find the right moves for black) Here is the analysis of yace of the game position and the position after 36.a4 f5(I played Ba7 and not a4) Yace even could not expect the correct moves of black. Uri Blass - Yoav duthan [D]bq4r1/4bp1k/4p3/1P2n1p1/2P1P2p/P3BP1P/1N1R1QP1/7K w - - 0 1 Analysis by Yace 0.99.56: 36.Bxg5 Bxg5 -+ (-2.69) Depth: 1 00:00:00 36.b6 Bxa3 37.Bxg5 = (0.13) Depth: 1 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 2 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 3 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 4 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 5 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 6 00:00:00 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 7 00:00:00 1kN 36.Bc5 Bxc5 37.Qxc5 Rc8 38.Qd4 f6 39.Kg1 Qc7 40.b6 Qc5 41.Qxc5 Rxc5 ² (0.30) Depth: 8 00:00:00 3kN 36.a4 Rc8 37.c5 Bxc5 38.Bxc5 Rxc5 39.Qxc5 Qc7 40.Qxc7 Nc4 ² (0.26) Depth: 9 00:00:06 2055kN 36.a4 Rd8 37.f4 Rxd2 38.Bxd2 gxf4 39.Qxf4 ² (0.42) Depth: 9 00:00:13 4253kN 36.a4 Rd8 37.f4 Rxd2 38.Bxd2 Ng6 39.fxg5 Kg8 40.Qe3 Qe5 41.Nd3 ² (0.46) Depth: 10 00:00:39 11831kN 36.a4 Rd8 37.a5 Rxd2 38.Qxd2 f6 39.Qc3 Bd6 40.a6 Qc8 41.c5 Kg7 ² (0.44) Depth: 11 00:01:53 34313kN 36.a4 Rd8 37.c5 Qc7 38.Rxd8 Bxd8 39.c6 ² (0.56) Depth: 12 00:07:06 131201kN 36.a4 Kg7 37.c5 f6 38.c6 Rd8 39.Rc2 Rh8 ² (0.58) Depth: 13 00:17:52 326773kN 36.a4 f5 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Bf6 40.c6 Qc7 ² (0.64) Depth: 14 01:24:13 1487386kN 36.a4 f5 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Bf6 40.c6 Re8 41.Rd1 Kg7 42.Nd3 Nxd3 43.Rxd3 Qc7 ² (0.64) Depth: 15 02:50:31 2891192kN 36.a4 Rd8 37.c5 Rxd2 38.Qxd2 Kg6 39.Bd4 f6 40.Qc3 Nf7 ² (0.69) Depth: 16 10:14:44 1573918kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 15.10.2001) after 36.a4 f5 Uri Blass - Yoav duthan bq4r1/4b2k/4p3/1P2npp1/P1P1P2p/4BP1P/1N1R1QP1/7K w - f6 0 1 Analysis by Yace 0.99.56: 37.exf5 exf5 ² (0.33) Depth: 1 00:00:00 37.Ba7 ² (0.37) Depth: 1 00:00:00 37.Ba7 Qc7 ² (0.28) Depth: 2 00:00:00 37.exf5 exf5 ² (0.33) Depth: 2 00:00:00 37.exf5 exf5 38.Bd4 Bf6 ² (0.44) Depth: 3 00:00:00 37.exf5 exf5 38.Bd4 Rd8 39.c5 ² (0.58) Depth: 4 00:00:00 37.exf5 exf5 38.Bd4 Bb4 39.Rd1 Rd8 ² (0.42) Depth: 5 00:00:00 22kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.Bd4 Bb4 39.Rd1 Re8 40.Nd3 ² (0.57) Depth: 6 00:00:00 52kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.Bd4 Bf6 39.Nd3 Re8 40.Nxe5 Bxe5 ² (0.46) Depth: 7 00:00:01 326kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 Qc7 39.c6 Rd8 40.Rd6 ² (0.50) Depth: 8 00:00:04 1304kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Re8 40.Nd3 Nxd3 41.Rxd3 Bd5 ² (0.60) Depth: 9 00:00:14 4125kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Re8 40.c6 Bb4 41.Re2 Qc7 42.Nc4 ² (0.64) Depth: 10 00:00:32 10097kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Re8 40.c6 Bf6 41.Nd3 Qc7 42.Nxe5 Bxe5 ² (0.61) Depth: 11 00:01:35 27978kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Re8 40.c6 Bf6 41.Bc5 Qc7 42.Rd6 Bg7 43.b6 ² (0.67) Depth: 12 00:05:40 101008kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Bf6 40.c6 Re8 41.Rd1 Kg7 ² (0.64) Depth: 13 00:14:58 263049kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 Re8 39.c6 f4 40.Bc5 Kg8 41.Bxe7 Rxe7 42.Qc5 ± (0.72) Depth: 14 01:08:32 1170634kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 Re8 39.c6 f4 40.Bc5 Bf6 41.Qd4 Kg7 42.Bd6 Qc8 43.Qd5 Qe6 44.Qxe6 Rxe6 ± (0.75) Depth: 15 03:00:49 3055398kN 37.exf5 exf5 38.c5 f4 39.Bd4 Kh6 40.c6 Re8 41.Rd1 Bf8 ± (0.71) Depth: 16 12:05:33 3574812kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 17.10.2001) Here is analysis of a possible position some plies after 37...g4 38.fxg4 Nxg4 39.hxg4 Rxg4 when yace starts to understand what is going on and shows a slightly negative score for white(yace learned that fxe6 is bad and you can see it by the first line at depth 1) Uri Blass - Yoav duthan [D]bq6/4b2k/4p3/1P3P2/P1P3rp/4B3/1N1R1QP1/7K w - - 0 1 Analysis by Yace 0.99.56: 40.fxe6 Rxg2 41.Qf5+ Rg6+ 42.Rd5 Qg3 43.Qf7+ Rg7 44.Qf1 Qe5 45.Qf3 Bd6 46.Bg1 h3 47.Qxh3+ Kg8 48.Qg2 -+ (-2.01) Depth: 1 00:00:00 40.f6 Bxg2+ 41.Kg1 +- (2.28) Depth: 1 00:00:00 40.Qf1 exf5 41.Qxf5+ Rg6 +- (3.58) Depth: 1 00:00:00 40.Qf1 Qg3 +- (3.36) Depth: 2 00:00:00 40.Qf1 h3 41.Bf2 hxg2+ 42.Qxg2 +- (2.96) Depth: 3 00:00:00 40.Qf1 h3 41.Rf2 hxg2+ +- (1.94) Depth: 3 00:00:00 40.Qg1 h3 +- (1.95) Depth: 3 00:00:00 40.Qg1 exf5 41.Bd4 +- (2.83) Depth: 3 00:00:00 40.Qg1 Qg3 41.Bd4 exf5 +- (2.43) Depth: 4 00:00:00 40.Qg1 Rxg2 41.Qh2 Rxh2+ 42.Kg1 +- (2.03) Depth: 5 00:00:00 19kN 40.Qg1 Rxg2 41.Rxg2 h3 42.Qf2 Bxg2+ 43.Kg1 +- (1.92) Depth: 5 00:00:00 19kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ 44.Bf2 Qb7 +- (1.93) Depth: 5 00:00:00 49kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg8+ 43.Kf3 Qf7 +- (1.93) Depth: 5 00:00:00 49kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg8+ 43.Kh1 Qa8+ 44.Kg1 Qg8+ 45.Kh2 Qg3+ 46.Kh1 Qh3+ 47.Kg1 Qxe3+ 48.Kf1 +- (1.63) Depth: 6 00:00:00 79kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Rxe7+ Rg7 43.Rxg7+ Kxg7 44.Bf2 exf5 45.b6 ± (1.23) Depth: 7 00:00:00 206kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ 44.Bf2 Qh1+ 45.Ke2 Qe4+ 46.Be3 exf5 47.Nd3 ± (1.07) Depth: 7 00:00:00 206kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ 44.Bf2 Qh1+ 45.Ke2 Qe4+ 46.Kd2 exf5 47.Bc5 Qg2+ 48.Kd3 ± (1.05) Depth: 8 00:00:02 719kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.f6 Qc1+ 46.Ke2 Qxb2+ 47.Kd3 ² (0.65) Depth: 9 00:00:04 1548kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.Rxe6 Qf3+ 46.Kg1 Qg3+ 47.Kf1 = (0.00) Depth: 9 00:00:05 1548kN 40.Kg1 Bxg2 41.Rd4 Rxd4 42.Bxd4 exf5 = (0.01) Depth: 9 00:00:25 9130kN 40.Kg1 Rxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Bxg2 42.Rd7 Bf3 43.Rxe7+ Kg8 44.Bf4 Qxf4 45.Kf1 = (0.00) Depth: 9 00:00:26 9874kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.Rxe6 Qf3+ 46.Kg1 Qg3+ 47.Kf1 = (0.00) Depth: 9 00:00:26 9874kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.Rxe6 Qc1+ 46.Re1 Qf4+ 47.Ke2 Qe5+ 48.Kf1 Qf4+ 49.Ke2 Qe5+ 50.Kf1 Qf4+ = (0.00) Depth: 10 00:00:28 10711kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.Rxe6 Qc1+ 46.Re1 Qf4+ 47.Ke2 Qe5+ 48.Kf1 Qf4+ = (0.00) Depth: 11 00:01:00 21982kN 40.Rd7 Bxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Rxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg3+ 43.Kf1 Qxe3 44.Rxe7+ Kg8 45.Re8+ Kf7 46.Rxe6 Qc1+ 47.Re1 Qxb2 ³ (-0.39) Depth: 12 00:02:18 50033kN 40.Rd5 exd5 41.f6 Bxf6 42.Qxf6 Qg3 43.Qf7+ Kh8 44.Qh5+ Kg8 45.Qe8+ Kg7 46.Qe7+ Kg6 47.Qe8+ Kf5 48.Qh5+ Rg5 49.Bxg5 Qxg5 ³ (-0.38) Depth: 12 00:10:07 209171kN 40.Rd5 exd5 41.f6 Kg6 42.fxe7 dxc4 43.Bf4 Rxg2 44.Bxb8 Rxf2+ 45.Kg1 Rg2+ 46.Kf1 Kf7 47.Nxc4 Kxe7 48.Bd6+ Ke6 49.a5 = (-0.17) Depth: 12 00:13:14 269511kN 40.Rd5 exd5 41.f6 Bxf6 42.Qxf6 Qg3 43.Qf7+ Kh8 44.Qh5+ Kg8 45.Qe8+ Kh7 46.Qf7+ = (0.00) Depth: 13 00:23:35 473591kN 40.Rd5 exd5 41.f6 Bxf6 42.Qxf6 Qe8 43.Qf5+ Rg6 44.Bf4 dxc4 45.Nxc4 = (-0.20) Depth: 14 00:52:46 1045976kN Uri
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