Author: Ernst Walet
Date: 08:49:30 12/22/01
Go up one level in this thread
What you prove here imho is that 64...Rd8 is a clear mistake by Shredder. Attached is F7a's analysis before and after this move. Ernst. Junior - Shredder 1r5k/7p/5PP1/1q6/p2p1N1K/2b1pBP1/8/3Q4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 7: 64...hxg6 65.Bd5 Qb1 66.Qg4 g5+ 67.Kxg5 Qc2 68.Qh4+ Qh7 -+ (-3.00) Depth: 7/22 00:00:00 160kN 64...hxg6-- -+ (-2.72) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 247kN 64...hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Ne7 d3 67.Be4+ Kh6 68.Nf5+ Qxf5 69.Bxf5 Bxf6+ 70.Kg4 µ (-0.79) Depth: 8/25 00:00:00 391kN 64...Rd8! µ (-0.82) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 604kN 64...Rd8! µ (-0.97) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 616kN 64...Rd8! µ (-1.29) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 634kN 64...Rd8! -+ (-1.91) Depth: 8/25 00:00:01 662kN 64...Rd8-- -+ (-1.63) Depth: 9/24 00:00:02 1186kN 64...Rd8 65.Qc2 h6 66.g7+ Kg8 67.Nd5 d3 68.Qxc3 Re8 69.Ne7+ Rxe7 ³ (-0.57) Depth: 9/28 00:00:04 2281kN 64...Rg8! ³ (-0.60) Depth: 9/28 00:00:05 3091kN 64...Rg8! µ (-0.75) Depth: 9/28 00:00:05 3129kN 64...Rg8! µ (-1.07) Depth: 9/28 00:00:05 3194kN 64...Rg8 65.Qc2 Qd7 66.g7+ Rxg7 67.fxg7+ Kxg7 µ (-1.35) Depth: 9/28 00:00:06 3581kN 64...Rg8 65.g7+ Rxg7 66.fxg7+ Kxg7 67.Bd5 Qd7 68.Ne6+ Kh8 69.Qf3 Qd6 70.Qf6+ µ (-1.13) Depth: 10/27 00:00:07 4211kN 64...d3! µ (-1.16) Depth: 10/30 00:00:09 5630kN 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 µ (-1.19) Depth: 10/30 00:00:09 5697kN 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Rxg8 71.Qxh7+ Kxf6 µ (-1.13) Depth: 11/31 00:00:11 6956kN 64...d3-- µ (-0.85) Depth: 12/24 00:00:15 9452kN 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q µ (-0.79) Depth: 12/34 00:00:19 11671kN 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Rxg8 71.Qxh7+ Kxf6 ³ (-0.69) Depth: 13/35 00:00:36 22753kN 64...d3-- ³ (-0.41) Depth: 14/27 00:01:00 38448kN 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Rxg8 71.Qxh7+ Kxf6 ³ (-0.35) Depth: 14/39 00:01:24 54186kN 64...d3-- = (-0.07) Depth: 15/32 00:02:27 95344kN 64...d3 = (-0.07) Depth: 15/40 00:03:16 129191kN 64...d3-- = (0.21) Depth: 16/33 00:06:00 237393kN, tb=1 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Rxg8 71.Qxh7+ Kxf6 = (0.25) Depth: 16/44 00:09:32 381255kN, tb=2 64...d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qxd3 e1Q 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Rxg8 71.Qxh7+ Kxf6 = (0.09) Depth: 17/44 00:22:40 909661kN, tb=36 (Celeron 1,2 GHz, 832MB hash, 3,4 and 5 piece EGTB's 22.12.2001) Junior - Shredder 3r3k/7p/5PP1/1q6/p2p1N1K/2b1pBP1/8/3Q4 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 7: 65.Qc2 h6 66.Ne6 Qc4 67.Qe4 Re8 -+ (-1.93) Depth: 7/22 00:00:00 177kN 65.Qc2! -+ (-1.65) Depth: 8/25 00:00:00 357kN 65.Qc2! µ (-1.37) Depth: 8/25 00:00:00 408kN 65.Qc2! µ (-0.81) Depth: 8/25 00:00:00 490kN 65.Qc2! ³ (-0.53) Depth: 9/25 00:00:02 961kN 65.Qc2! = (-0.25) Depth: 9/25 00:00:02 1080kN 65.Qc2 h6 66.Nd5 Rg8 67.g7+ Rxg7 68.fxg7+ Kxg7 69.Nxc3 Qg5+ 70.Kh3 = (0.10) Depth: 9/28 00:00:02 1338kN 65.Qc2 h6 66.g7+ Kg8 67.Nd5 d3 68.Qxc3 Re8 69.f7+ Kxf7 70.Bh5+ Kg8 71.Nf6+ Kxg7 ² (0.29) Depth: 10/27 00:00:04 2378kN 65.Qc2! ² (0.57) Depth: 11/29 00:00:09 4966kN 65.Qc2! ± (0.85) Depth: 11/29 00:00:09 5541kN 65.Qc2 Rg8 66.f7 Qb8 67.fxg8Q+ Qxg8 ± (0.94) Depth: 11/32 00:00:11 6597kN 65.Qc2! ± (1.22) Depth: 12/30 00:00:21 12741kN 65.Qc2! +- (1.50) Depth: 12/30 00:00:23 14156kN 65.Qc2! +- (2.07) Depth: 12/32 00:00:29 17414kN 65.Qc2! +- (2.35) Depth: 13/32 00:01:08 42309kN 65.Qc2! +- (2.63) Depth: 13/32 00:01:12 45031kN 65.Qc2! +- (3.19) Depth: 13/35 00:01:19 49883kN 65.Qc2 Rg8 66.Qe4 Qd7 67.Qe5 d3 68.Qxc3 hxg6 69.f7+ Kh7 70.fxg8Q+ Kxg8 71.Bd5+ Kh7 72.Qxd3 +- (3.38) Depth: 13/35 00:01:38 61876kN 65.Qc2! +- (3.66) Depth: 14/34 00:02:52 107616kN 65.Qc2 Rg8 66.Qe4 Qd7 67.Qe5 d3 68.Qxc3 hxg6 +- (3.69) Depth: 14/35 00:03:13 121376kN 65.Qc2! +- (3.97) Depth: 15/38 00:05:58 229837kN 65.Qc2! +- (4.25) Depth: 15/38 00:06:21 245726kN 65.Qc2! +- (4.82) Depth: 15/38 00:07:12 279864kN 65.Qc2 Rg8 66.Bd5 e2 67.g7+ Rxg7 68.fxg7+ Kxg7 69.Qf5 Qxd5 70.Nh5+ Kg8 71.Qxd5+ Kf8 72.Qf3+ +- (6.41) Depth: 15/40 00:08:34 334936kN (Celeron 1,2 GHz, 832MB hash, 3,4 and 5 piece EGTB's 22.12.2001) On December 22, 2001 at 03:36:46, K. Burcham wrote: >in this game there was a big swing from a positive score of about five to a >losing score of a mate in 11 in the final position. i have had several questions >about this game since i found this out at that time. this game has been >discussed here before. this was not a blitz game. shredders score >gradually increased to the +5, and back to a mate in 11 with 80 moves. all this >made me curious. here are my questions about this game. > >questions: > 1. was there one or more blunders? > 2. will some of the other top programs have this large eval swing? > 4. how miscalculated was this plan by shredder to push its own two pawns? > 5. can we find a key move in this game that will end in a draw? > 6. will shredder duplicate the same eval, in an analysis? > 7. one of the top programmers that post here, made this statement: > "well we know we cant trust shredders eval, so we should not > use this program to analyze games". i assumed he was basing > that comment on this game. so is his statement true? > 8. did deep junior eval also swing, the same as shredder? > 9. when did deep junior see the problem shredder was in? > 10. does this game indicate that deep junior can see far ahead > of most programs? > >now i am able to get some accurate answers. with dual 1533 and 1 gig ram, >i can run deep junior7. in the list below you will see i also used other >programs to compare. i tried to keep most depths from about 12 to 15. >deep junior was getting depths of 4 to 5 more than other programs. >sometimes the post would hang during analysis. but i think this info >is accurate. i started with move 21. shreddder was in book until about move 11. >deep junior also did not have 11...Rc8 in its book. it seems stefan >was using a different book than the commercial shredder5. maybe this was the >shredder5.32 book, not sure. at move 21 shredder eval was up about one pawn. > >all scores are for white, deep junior7. > >deep junior7, shredder5, chess tiger 14.0, deep shredder, crafty 18.08 > >21.Qh3 -.30 -1.25 -1.28 -.92 -.69 >31.Na4 -1.25 -3.05 -2.04 -2.88 -.2.05 >47.hxg4 -1.95 -4.08 -2.88 -4.25 -3.19 >55.Kh3 -1.76 -4.92 -4.52 -4.95 -3.00 >57.g5 -2.63 -5.37 -4.98 -5.40 -4.20 >61.Kh4 -1.75 -5.58 -3.92 -5.40 -3.25 >...a4 -1.08 -5.51 -3.62 -5.09 -3.00 >62.f6 -.92 -3.60 -3.60 -3.95 -2.95 >...Rb8 -.37 -2.00 -2.90 -2.80 -2.46 >63.Bf3 .00 -.27 -1.38 .00 -2.44 >... >64.g6 +.20 +.45 .00 +.37 +.19 >...Rd8 +3.50 +2.33 +3.88 +5.50(Qc2) +4.36 >66.Qc2 +4.00 +4.75 +4.08 +5.15 +2.47 >69.Nxd5 +3.16 +7.06 +3.48 +5.40 +2.33 >...Kf7 +5.75 +7.35 +6.85 +7.50 +6.62 >71.Qf3 +6.10 +9.00 +10.85 +10.11 +8.44 > >80...Kb6 mate in 11 stefan resigns > >with the above info all of my questions have been answered. >i am not saying that any of these programs would have played the same lines as >shredder to lead into this same game. but it is obvious that junior did not see >the win any sooner than the other programs. although dj eval was lower than >shredder considerably. shredder5 eval and large eval swing was a little more >than the others. but most programs evals were similiar. also at move 71 >deep junior eval is still 3 points lower than others. so DJ7 eval is >conservative on both ends. it seems to me that deep junior had no idea >that it could promote and mate, before the other programs could see this. >but in this game deep junior played for the win, and was the victor. > >i also studied some of the key moves in this game. after using ct14 and deep >shredder i found that on move 48...Bxf5, 49.exf5, the two pawns could now >advance forward for the queen. in the Maastricht game shredder did not see >this combination. instead if shredder had played 48...Nc2, >shredder wins. of course i know this was just one game. but dj was running >on 2x1533 and getting deep search. with this only one move change, shredder >wins. also slate and i tried another line with changing just one move in >this game and shredder had a draw with slate. slate if you read this, >i found another line that shredder could win. >here is the one move change, 48...Nc2 that shredder wins this game. > >[Event "Maastrict 2001 with move 48...Nc2"] >[Site "?"] >[Date "2001.12.22"] >[Round "6"] >[White "Deep Junior"] >[Black "Shredder5"] >[Result "0-1"] >[SetUp "1"] >[FEN "1r5k/2qb3p/3p3b/p3pN2/N3P1P1/2P1n1P1/6B1/R3Q2K b - -"] > >1... Nc2 2. Qd1 Nxa1 3. Nxh6 Bxa4 4. Qxa4 Nb3 5. g5 Nc5 6. Qa2 >Rf8 7. Qd5 a4 8. Nf5 a3 9. g4 Qd7 10. Qa2 >Qa4 11. Kh2 Nxe4 12. c4 Rb8 13. c5 Qb3 14. Qe2 >a2 15. Qa6 Qb2 16. Qa7 Rg8 17. g6 hxg6 18. Nh6 >a1=Q 19. Qxa1 Qxa1 20. Nxg8 Nc3 21. Kh3 Ne2 22. Ne7 0-1 > > >this is 48.Nf5 > [D] 1r5k/2qb3p/3p3b/p3pN2/N3P1P1/2P1n1P1/6B1/R3Q2K b - - > >here is the complete game. >[Event "WMCCC"] >[Site "Maastricht"] >[Date "2001.08.22"] >[Round "6"] >[White "Junior"] >[Black "Shredder"] >[Result "1-0"] > >1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 >e6 7. Be2 Qc7 8. f4 b5 9. a3 Bb7 10. Bf3 Nbd7 11. Nde2 Rc8 >12. O-O Be7 13. Kh1 O-O 14. b4 Nb6 15. Qd3 Rfd8 16. f5 Nc4 >17. fxe6 fxe6 18. Bd4 Rd7 19. Bxf6 Bxf6 20. Bg4 Re7 21. Qh3 >Rce8 22. a4 bxa4 23. Bh5 Rf8 24. Bg4 Bc8 25. Rxa4 Ree8 >26. Raa1 g6 27. Qg3 Qb6 28. Bh3 Qxb4 29. Qd3 Bg7 30. Rfb1 >Qc5 31. Na4 Qc7 32. c3 Rf6 33. Nd4 Ref8 34. Nf3 Rf4 35. Nd4 >Re8 36. Rf1 Rxf1+ 37. Rxf1 Bd7 38. Ra1 Kh8 39. Qf1 g5 >40. Qd1 Ne5 41. g3 g4 42. Bg2 a5 43. Qc2 Rb8 44. Qc1 Nc4 >45. Qe1 Bh6 46. h3 Ne3 47. hxg4 e5 48. Nf5 Bxf5 49. exf5 >Nc2 50. Qd1 Nxa1 51. Qxa1 e4 52. Qd1 e3 53. Bf3 Bg7 54. Kg2 >Re8 55. Kh3 Qc4 56. Be2 Qc6 57. g5 Be5 58. Nb2 d5 59. Nd3 >Bxc3 60. Nf4 d4 61. Kh4 a4 62. f6 Rb8 63. Bf3 Qb5 64. g6 >Rd8 65. g7+ Kg8 66. Qc2 Rd6 67. Qa2+ Qb3 68. Bd5+ Rxd5 >69. Nxd5 Kf7 70. Qg2 d3 71. Qf3 Qb8 72. Qh5+ Ke6 73. Nxc3 >e2 74. Qg4+ Kf7 75. Kg5 h6+ 76. Kxh6 e1=Q 77. Qg6+ Ke6 >78. f7+ Kd7 79. Qxd3+ Kc7 80. Qc4+ Kb6 1-0 > >final position. stefan resigns with two queens on board. 80...Qb6 >and mate in 11. > > [D] 1q6/5PP1/1k5K/8/p1Q5/2N3P1/8/4q3 w - - > >kburcham
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