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Subject: Re: Question for Nalimov and Mooreland/Do you think KNN V K is injustice?

Author: Mark Young

Date: 12:51:02 12/29/01

Go up one level in this thread


On December 29, 2001 at 13:23:03, Bruce Moreland wrote:

>On December 29, 2001 at 03:03:30, Gogi Cviak wrote:
>
>>>KNNN vs KR can't possibly be a win for the knights, since RxN is drawn, and
>>>there are three of them to threaten.  In KBN vs KRR, "all" you have to do to win
>>>is win an exchange with a knight while preserving your bishop, but in this one
>>>you have to win a whole rook while preserving everything.
>>-Interesting Questions
>>
>>-Bruce
>>
>>so KBN VS KRR, can they win? When will all this 6 pieces be finished and I dont
>>mean those with the pawns, but I would suggest to Eugene to make the most
>>important endings, like: RPPKRK, IS THIS REALLY A DRAW? Will be ever see perfect
>>moves for this?
>
>I meant KBNN vs KR.  I don't know why I wrote the other thing.
>
>>SO KNNN is a draw, but KNNB VS rook is also a draw?
>>KRNN VS KR I ALSO THINK IS A DRAW what about
>>KRBN VS KR, i think we have a win there in over 200 moves? same with KRBB?
>>
>>Hey if this happens I guess it should be played in real matches, sorry, a win is
>>a win, sure there can be a break, but play must continue...
>>
>>NOW, KNN V K, IS  A DRAW, but dont u think that is A HUGE INJUSTICE IN CHESS, I
>>MEAN THAT'S 6.25 POINTS, DONT U THINK IN THAT CASE THERE SHOULD BE A NEW RULE,
>>LIKE ADDING A PAWN OR A BISHOP?
>>
>>So, tell me KNNN VS KB, IS THIS A WIN? how many moves?
>
>KNNN vs KB is another interesting case but I bet it's drawn.

I disagree, some of us have looked at this at the club a few years back for fun,
it was very hard if not impossible for KB to hold off three knights and a king.
It is not simple to take BXN and hold a draw. We are for from perfect, but my
gut tells me its a win for KNNN.

Below is a quick computer vs computer example.

[d]1b2k3/8/8/8/3N2N1/4K3/8/1N6 w - - 0 1

1.Ke4  7.90/14  14  Bd6  7.86/11  1  2.Kd5  7.94/12  4  Bb4  7.94/12  2  3.Nc6
7.98/11  2  Be1  7.96/12  3  4.Nge5  8.00/12  5  Bg3  7.94/13  3  5.Nc4  7.92/12
 4  Kf7  7.92/12  3  6.Nc3  7.92/10  2  Kg6  7.92/11  3  7.Ne4  7.92/11  5  Bf4
7.92/12  3  8.Ke6  7.92/12  4  Kh5  7.92/12  4  9.Kf5  7.94/11  4  Bh6  7.92/11
3  10.N6e5  7.94/10  2  Kh4  7.92/12  4  11.Nd3  7.90/11  4  Bg7  7.94/11  3
12.Ne3  7.98/10  3  Kh3  7.98/11  6  13.Nf4+  8.00/10  3  Kh2  8.00/11  3
14.Ke6  7.98/10  3  Kh1  8.02/10  3  15.Nf5  8.00/10  3  Bh8  8.02/11  3  16.Kd5
 7.98/10  4  Kg1  8.02/11  2  17.Ne3  7.98/10  2  Kh2  7.98/11  3  18.Nd3
7.98/9  2  Bg7  7.98/11  4  19.Kc5  7.96/10  2  Kh3  7.96/10  2  20.Ndf2+
#13/12  5  Kh2  #12/14  7  21.Nfg4+  #13/11  2  Kh3  #12/12  2  22.Nef2+  #13/12
 1  Kh4  #12/13  1  23.Nf5+  #13/12  2  Kg5  #12/13  1  24.Nxg7  #13/12  1  Kg6
#12/1  1  25.Ne6  #12/1  1  Kf7  #11/1  0  26.Kd5  #11/1  2  Kg6  #11/1  0
27.Ne4  #10/1  0  Kf5  #9/1  0  28.Nef6  #9/1  0  Kg6  #9/1  0  29.Ke5  #8/1  0
Kf7  #8/1  0  30.Nd5  #7/1  0  Kg6  #7/1  0  31.Ndf4+  #6/1  0  Kf7  #6/1  0
32.Kd6  #5/1  0  Kg8  #4/1  0  33.Ke7  #4/1  0  Kh7  #3/1  0  34.Kf7  #3/1  0
Kh8  #3/1  0  35.Ng6+  #2/1  0  Kh7  #2/1  0  36.Ng5# #1/1  0  1-0




>
>bruce
>
>>
>>Ken Thompson's endings, I know they are different format from Nalimov's but I am
>>wondering, they both used different methods in finding the perfect moves?



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