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Subject: Re: Aspiration window

Author: Antonio Dieguez

Date: 14:46:13 01/21/02

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On January 21, 2002 at 17:41:54, Bas Hamstra wrote:

>On January 21, 2002 at 17:28:11, Antonio Dieguez wrote:
>
>>On January 21, 2002 at 17:18:03, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>
>>>On January 21, 2002 at 16:47:09, Antonio Dieguez wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 21, 2002 at 16:30:22, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 21, 2002 at 15:56:59, Antonio Dieguez wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>It should matter in quiet positions, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, It should matter depending on how often the pv changes, so may be more in
>>>>>>unquiet positions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well, here is data, opening
>>>>>>>position:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rootwindow <-inf, inf> takes 2404K nodes
>>>>>>>Rootwindow <-50, 50> takes 2420K nodes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...to complete 10 ply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>strange, I don't know the logic there, i would have guessed a bigger
>>>>>>difference. please don't be angry but if that is what I would get in amyan
>>>>>>regularly I would be sure it has a bug or I made a mistake in the experiment.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is possible of course, but I don't think so. It just don't seem to buy me a
>>>>>lot. As far as I know it has never been proven anyway. Plus (based on only a
>>>>>couple of tests) I simply don't see it here.
>>>>
>>>>but search with alpha+1,beta is better if beta is not infinite. I don't think
>>>>that using pvs changes that much, the results of your tests, if have done well,
>>>>are counterintuitive.
>>>
>>>Yes. I am not claiming it is better of course. It just happened in this
>>>position. But it is interesting to figure out how this can happen in *any*
>>>position. One thing I can think of is that you lose bound info.
>>
>>ok but it shouldn't matter much when using a conservative window, except in big
>>fail low or fail high.
>>
>>>>>>>Convince me with data :-) Should be no big deal to do this little test for
>>>>>>your engine? Difference? Other position is also fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm not using much pvs inside the three as it does not help me, may be other
>>>>>>person may do that quicker.
>>>>>>Be well...
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you use straight alphabeta? PVS might be a tiny bit more efficient. At least
>>>>>that is what everybody says. But the difference is small IMO.
>>>>hyatt says that for him, the difference between alphabeta with aspiration and
>>>>pvs is only 10%, for me is near zero.
>>>
>>>Well that is a number that does not seem unrealistic to me. Only slightly
>>>better. On the other hand not having a rootwindow spairs you the trouble of
>>>having fail-low's. After which you have no hashmove, *bang*. What's better
>>>overall remains a question for me.
>>
>>"After wich you have no hashmove"
>>you mean the hash moves of positions inside that tree? they don't have to be
>>deleted by the fail low... altough yes possibly if the thing is failing low may
>>be some of them were not so good but they are there.
>>
>>best wishes...
>>me.
>
>Suppose you search with <-50, 50> and get a fail low on the root. Now you have
>to re-search. And what is the hashtable giving you? A move with score < -50. It
>might as well be < -1000 and not a good move to play first. If you do nothing
>about it the search might totally crash. That's why Crafty uses "internal
>iterative deepening".

so you meant at the root? that is bestmove but you told hashmove... ok

about internal iterative depending it only hurts a bit in amyan.... what a weird
program uh.

best regards again...
me.



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