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Subject: Re: Killer and history

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 10:48:51 06/25/98

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On June 25, 1998 at 10:37:12, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On June 25, 1998 at 09:30:58, Ed Schröder wrote:
>
>>>Posted by Amir Ban on June 25, 1998 at 03:36:32:
>>
>>>I use the same procedure Don uses: Two killers, always replace, no counters. I
>>>was surprised you guys think you have something better. Tests will decide,
>>>true, but I'm not persuaded by the verbal arguments. It seems to me that >"always replace" should be equal at least.
>>
>>Same here. Tried all types of counters and other tricks to no avail. Always
>>replace for Rebel is also superior.
>>
>>Like to add that the following worked for Rebel. After killer-one I use
>>killer-one of 2 plies back, then killer-two and finally killer-two of
>>2 plies back. This gave a speedup of 5% if I remember well.
>>
>>- Ed -
>>
>>>Amir
>
>
>that worked in Cray Blitz, but we didn't use history moves there.  In Crafty,
>I try the two killers, then a couple of history moves, and if I haven't gotten
>a cutoff by then, I stop wasting time and just take moves as they were
>generated, to save time, since this is probably an ALL node anyway and won't get
>a cutoff.
>
>My only comment on the counters is that it works better for me.  It did in
>Cray Blitz, and it does in Crafty.  I tried both ways way back, but this was
>always a little better... I'm not sure what is meant by "extra overhead of
>counters" because it adds basically nothing.  You don't have to "sort" with
>two entries.. you always replace the last, and when you get a match on the
>second one only, you bump the counter and possibly swap it with the first one
>based on the two counter values.  Not exactly time consuming.


I just ran some tests, since I haven't done this in quite a while.  My results
haven't changed...  some positions are faster with the count, others are not,
but overall, the counter approach produces results that are between .5 and 1%
better.  I notice *no* speed penalty with the counter, and my NPS didn't change
at all, but the trees *overall* were a tiny fraction larger.  Note that I tested
only a couple of tactical positions, most were just common middlegame positions,
I suspect that this is one of those things where *any* sort of killer idea is
better than *no* killers at all...

This is probably along the lines of hash probing.. do you use a two-level
(Belle) approach (one always store table, one depth-preferred table) or do you
probe multiple positions?  Multiple probes are clearly better, but they have a
cost.  If you can afford huge, sparsely-populated tables, the two-level approach
can work well, because it strains the memory bandwidth badly.  The cheaper, and
less-bandwidth-intensive two-level table can do pretty well if it is not too
small.  And the approach (whatever it is) is a near-religion to many.  :)

Bob



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