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Subject: Re: Which programs can find Rebels amazing 23.Qh3-h4!?!?! (Diagramm)

Author: Eelco de Groot

Date: 13:20:27 02/19/02

Go up one level in this thread


On February 19, 2002 at 15:21:14, Uri Blass wrote:

>On February 19, 2002 at 14:19:06, Thomas Lagershausen wrote:
>
>>Rebel Centuy 4 - Loek van Wely
>>[D]r5k1/2q2pbp/p1b1p1p1/8/Pp2p3/4N2Q/1PPR1PPP/3R2K1 w - - 0 1
>>
>>A wonderfull move.Something unbelievable.A real pawnsac for attack.Worldchampion
>>Junior 7 couldn´t attack so strong the gm.
>>
>>Analysis by Junior 7(Athlon 1,5 Ghz):
>>
>>23.a5 Lxb2
>>  ³  (-0.37)   Tiefe: 3   00:00:00
>>23.b3 Tc8
>>  =  (0.03)   Tiefe: 3   00:00:00
>>23.b3 Tc8 24.Dh4
>>  =  (-0.16)   Tiefe: 6   00:00:00  1kN
>>23.Dg3 Le5 24.Dh4 Lxb2 25.Td8+ Txd8 26.Txd8+ Kg7
>>  =  (0.02)   Tiefe: 6   00:00:00  5kN
>>23.Dg3 Le5 24.Dh4 Lxb2 25.Td8+ Kg7 26.Txa8 Lxa8 27.Dd8
>>  =  (-0.04)   Tiefe: 9   00:00:00  36kN
>>23.b3 Lc3 24.Td6 Le5 25.T6d2 Lf4 26.Dh4
>>  =  (-0.01)   Tiefe: 9   00:00:00  52kN
>>23.b3 Lc3 24.Dg3 Dxg3 25.Td8+ Txd8 26.Txd8+ Kg7 27.hxg3 Kf6 28.Td6 Lb7 29.Td7
>>  =  (0.01)   Tiefe: 12   00:00:00  341kN
>>23.b3 Lf6 24.Dg3 Dxg3 25.hxg3 Kf8 26.Sc4 Lc3 27.Td6 Ld5 28.Td7 Lxc4
>>  =  (0.09)   Tiefe: 15   00:00:04  5005kN
>>23.b3 Lf6 24.Dg3 Dxg3 25.hxg3 Kf8 26.Td6 Tc8 27.Sc4 Ke7 28.Kh2
>>  =  (0.09)   Tiefe: 17   00:00:25  26225kN
>>23.b3 Lf6 24.Dg3 Dxg3 25.hxg3 Tc8 26.Sc4 Kg7 27.Sd6 Tc7 28.Kh2 Lc3
>>  =  (0.14)   Tiefe: 18   00:02:16  137285kN
>>23.b3 Lf6 24.Dg3 Dxg3 25.hxg3 Tc8 26.Sc4 Kf8 27.Td6 Le7
>>  =  (0.16)   Tiefe: 19   00:04:51  289489kN
>
>It is not about tactics
>Junior7 gives the position after 27.Rg8+ smaller score than 0.16
>
>I am not sure if Rebel's move is objectively the best move.
>
>I believe that programs that cannot find it are going to find it if you increase
>the material value of the queen in their evaluation.
>
>Uri

I think it is possible that with a little more time Rebel would also have
switched to 23.b3. I tested it with Rebel Century 2 and it switches to 23.b3 but
this after about 7 and a half minutes, Celeron 500 and timesharing so the Athlon
1600 should have reached that depth also. So maybe Century 4 does not switch to
23.b2-b3 at thirteen ply.


Century 2.0

00:00  03.00  1.39  1.b3 Bc3 2.Rd6
00:00  05.00  1.20  1.b3 Bc3 2.Rd6 Be5 3.R6d2
00:00  06.00  0.59  1.b3 Bc3 2.Re2 Rd8 3.Rxd8+ Qxd8 4.Qh6
00:01  06.11  1.16  1.Qh4 Bxa4 2.Qxe4 Rb8 3.Nc4 Bc6
00:01  07.00  0.68  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Rd8+ Rxd8 3.Rxd8+ Kg7 4.c3 Bxc3 5.Nd1+ Bxa4
00:05  08.00  0.62  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.c3 Bxc3 3.Rd8+ Rxd8 4.Rxd8+ Kg7 5.Nc4+
00:15  09.00  0.40  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Ng4 Re8 3.a5 Bg7 4.Nf6+ Bxf6 5.Qxf6 Qxa5
00:15  09.01  0.41  1.b3 Bc3 2.Qg3 Qxg3 3.Rd8+ Rxd8 4.Rxd8 Kg7 5.hxg3 f6
00:29  10.00  0.44  1.b3 Bc3 2.Re2 Rd8 3.Rxd8+ Qxd8 4.Qh6 Bg7
00:32  10.01  0.44  1.Qh4
00:35  10.01  0.67  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Rd8+ Rxd8 3.Rxd8+ Kg7 4.Ng4 h5 5.Qg5 hxg4 6.Qh4
Qxd8
01:03  11.00  0.80  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Rd8+ Rxd8 3.Rxd8+ Kg7 4.Ng4 h5 5.Qg5 hxg4 6.Qh4
02:14  12.00  0.80  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Rd8+ Rxd8 3.Rxd8+ Kg7 4.Ng4 h5 5.Qg5 hxg4 6.Qh4
06:39  13.00  0.65  1.Qh4 Bxb2 2.Rd8+ Rxd8 3.Rxd8+ Kg7 4.Ng4 Qf4
07:39  13.01  0.67  1.b3 Bc3 2.Qg3 Qxg3 3.Rd8+ Rxd8 4.Rxd8+ Kg7 5.hxg3 h6
22:43  14.00  0.90  1.b3 Bc3 2.Qg3 Qxg3 3.Rd8+ Rxd8


Q5T immediately plays Qh4 at three ply deep but expects a line that is totally
different from the game, I haven't looked and frankly I don't dare... It thinks
it is almost a piece ahead. Crazy woodpushing piece of sand it is. Century 2.0
on the other hand sees Black's Queen sacrifice 26. ...Qf4, 7 plies earlier,
already in the 13 ply iteration!

Q5T:

[D]r5k1/2q2pbp/p1b1p1p1/8/Pp2p3/4N2Q/1PPR1PPP/3R2K1 w - -


00:00  01.00  -3.78   1.Rd7 Bxd7
00:00  01.02  1.13   1.Rd6 Bxb2
00:00  01.11  1.80   1.b3
00:00  02.00  1.67   1.b3 f5
00:00  02.01  1.73   1.c3 Bxa4
00:00  02.03  1.73   1.Qg3
00:00  02.03  1.97   1.Qg3 Qxg3 2.hxg3 Bxb2 3.Nc4
00:00  03.00  1.84   1.Qg3 Qxg3 2.hxg3 Bxa4 3.Nc4 f6
00:00  03.02  2.00   1.b3 Bc3 2.Rd6
00:00  03.17  2.08   1.Qh4 Bxa4 2.Rd8+ Rxd8
00:00  04.00  1.95   1.Qh4 Re8 2.Nc4 Bxa4 3.Qxe4
00:00  05.00  1.96   1.Qh4 f6 2.Ng4 Rf8 3.Nh6+ Bxh6
00:00  06.00  1.98   1.Qh4 Re8 2.b3 f6 3.Rd6 h5
00:01  07.00  2.00   1.Qh4 f6 2.Rd4 Rb8 3.Ng4 g5 4.Nh6+
                       Kh8  (0)

00:04  08.00  1.92   1.Qh4 Re8 2.b3 f6 3.Rd6 Bf8 4.R6d4
00:11  09.00  1.97   1.Qh4 Rf8 2.Rd8 h5 3.Rxf8+ Bxf8
                       4.Rd8 Bd7  (5)

00:28  10.00  1.75   1.Qh4 Re8 2.b3 Bc3 3.Ng4 e3 4.Nh6+
                       Kh8 5.fxe3  (16)

02:17  11.00  1.93   1.Qh4 h5 2.b3 Kh7 3.g4 Qf4 4.Qg3+
                       Qf3 5.Qxf3 exf3  (51)

06:16  12.00  1.95   1.Qh4 h5 2.b3 Kh7 3.g4 Bc3 4.Rd6
                       Be5 5.gxh5  (186)

17:46  13.00  1.69   1.Qh4 Rf8 2.b3 f5 3.Rd8 h6 4.Rxf8+


Crafty 18.10, also timesharing, in analysis mode plays 23.b2-b3:

White(23): analyze
              clearing hash tables
              time surplus   0.00  time limit 30.00 (3:30)
         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
                7->   3.34   0.21   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. g4 Rd4 26.
                                    g5 Rxd1+ 27. Nxd1
                8     3.80   0.18   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. g4 Be5 26.
                                    Red2 Rxd2 27. Rxd2
                8->   9.64   0.18   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. g4 Be5 26.
                                    Red2 Rxd2 27. Rxd2
                9    11.63   0.23   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qh6 Qf6 27. Nc4 g5 28. Qh5
                9->  26.28   0.23   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qh6 Qf6 27. Nc4 g5 28. Qh5
               10    29.93   0.14   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 a5 27. h3 Bd4 28. Nc4 Qd5
               10->   1:28   0.14   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 a5 27. h3 Bd4 28. Nc4 Qd5
               11     1:34   0.17   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 a5 27. h4 e5 28. Qg4 Qf6 29.
                                    Nc4
               11->   2:29   0.17   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 a5 27. h4 e5 28. Qg4 Qf6 29.
                                    Nc4
               12     3:03   0.21   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 Bd5 27. h4 Bc6 28. Qf4 Qf6
                                    29. Qxf6 Bxf6 30. g3
               12->   6:01   0.21   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Rxd8+ Qxd8
                                    26. Qg3 Bd5 27. h4 Bc6 28. Qf4 Qf6
                                    29. Qxf6 Bxf6 30. g3
               13     7:33   0.21   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Qg4 Qe7
                                    26. Qf4 Rxd1+ 27. Nxd1 Bd4 28. Rd2
                                    e5 29. Qg4 f5 30. Qh3
               13->  12:44   0.21   23. b3 Bc3 24. Re2 Rd8 25. Qg4 Qe7
                                    26. Qf4 Rxd1+ 27. Nxd1 Bd4 28. Rd2
                                    e5 29. Qg4 f5 30. Qh3
               14    25:03   0.40   23. b3 Bc3 24. Qg3 Qxg3 25. Rd8+ Kg7
                                    26. hxg3 Rxd8 27. Rxd8 Be5 28. Ng4
                                    Bc3 29. Rd6 Bb7 30. Rd7 Bd5

Congratulations to the Rebel team! I just looked at a few snapshots of the
endgame, that didn't look easy to win at all, certainly not against Loek who has
good technique? Just those few positions I've seen it looked like a fine win in
the ending for Rebel!




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