Author: José Carlos
Date: 16:10:12 02/19/02
Go up one level in this thread
On February 19, 2002 at 18:57:43, Antonio Dieguez wrote: >On February 19, 2002 at 17:21:47, José Carlos wrote: > >>On February 19, 2002 at 14:33:22, Roy Eassa wrote: >> >>> >>>But aren't humans just vastly more complex machines? >> >> That's an interesting topic, but I'm afraid off topic here. >> I basically agree with you, > >and your girlfriend is a machine too? Girls are perfect machines :) José C. >> but I believe most people don't. If we are more >>complex machines, my point is still valid for computers, but then it also appies >>to humans! >> Difficult to say, actually... I don't believe in soul, gods or things like >>that, so I believe our brain is a incredibly complex computer. So complex to ask >>itself 'what am I?' > > >> José C. >> >> >>>On February 19, 2002 at 09:24:07, José Carlos wrote: >>> >>>> As it has been brought up again and I didn't give my opinion in the past, I'd >>>>like to say what I think about all of that. >>>> In times of Fritz 2/3, Chris was against this fast-dumb philosophy. He >>>>proposed, and then implemented, something that was meant to be in the opposite >>>>side, this is, slow-smart. This was his 'new paradigm' then. And it seems >>>>nowadays that top programs are joining the not-so-fast-but-smarter philosophy, >>>>so he was right. >>>> The users have normally a very different point of view than the programmers. >>>>Programmers _know_ that any program (not only chess ones) is nothing but a >>>>secuence of mathematical calculations. In the very end, some 1's and 0's and the >>>>hardware they 'dance' in. >>>> But the users tend to see the program as if it was a person. Tend to used >>>>words like 'creativity', 'aggresiveness', 'passiveness', and so on. Programs >>>>don't have those characteristics, they only _seem_ to have some of them. But as >>>>I said, in the end, it's nothing but a mathematical calculation that choses this >>>>or that move. Believing that a program can be 'creative' is like believing that >>>>it rains because the clouds are sad and cry: poetry, romanticism, creation of >>>>myths. >>>> Don't get me wrong, I don't say I like nor dislike poetry, that's not the >>>>topic I'm trying to discuss (actually, I'm a lover of Tal's art), what I'm >>>>saying is that that don't apply to computers. That's all. >>>> After that, Thorsten, with his passionate and human point of view, created a >>>>myth around this new paradigm, seeing in CSTal games things he had never seen in >>>>other programs games, and though they happened for reasons they didn't. And I >>>>understand him for doing that, it's difficult to resist. >>>> But when I read Chris' post, I read the key words 'tree', 'prunning', >>>>'search', 'nodes', ... Those words prove he was doing exactly the same: >>>>searching a game-tree. He might use a different algorithm; he might use >>>>different heuristics; whatever else. But after all, he's doing the same, find a >>>>path in a game-tree. >>>> I think it is good to distinguish between fast-dumb and slow-smart, and that >>>>they can be cosidered two paradigms in computer chess programming, at least, two >>>>schools (I don't know if this direct translation is correct in english). But >>>>magic doesn't exist. It's all about 1's and 0's... >>>> >>>> José C.
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