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Subject: Re: puzzling endgame

Author: Will Singleton

Date: 20:41:51 03/03/02

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On March 03, 2002 at 23:33:10, John Merlino wrote:

>On March 03, 2002 at 21:31:16, Will Singleton wrote:
>
>>On March 03, 2002 at 17:49:16, John Merlino wrote:
>>
>>>On March 03, 2002 at 15:44:41, Jon Dart wrote:
>>>
>>>>Recently Arasan had this position against Gandalf on ICC:
>>>>
>>>>[D] 8/p5kp/1pBnP1p1/8/8/P3P3/4K2P/8 w - -
>>>>
>>>>Arasan played e7? here and lost. It had limited time here: it switches
>>>>off e7 pretty quickly, and prefers Kd3, but continues to give White a
>>>>positive score.
>>>>
>>>>On the other hand, a variety of other programs I've tried (Crafty,
>>>>Hiarcs 7, and Pharaon) play e4 here with a negative score for White.
>>>>
>>>>I'd be interested in any comments on this endgame. e7? is a loser,
>>>>but is Black still better if White avoids this?
>>>>
>>>>--Jon
>>>
>>>Here's what Chessmaster says:
>>>
>>>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>>>0:00	5/6	0.29	11360		1.e4 Kf8 2.Kd3 Ke7 3.e5 Nf5
>>>0:00	6/7	0.09	24852		1.e4 Kf8 2.Kd3 Ke7 3.e5 Nf5 4.Bd7
>>>					Ng7
>>>0:00	7/8	0.22	59680		1.e4 Kf8 2.Kd3 Ke7 3.Bd7 b5 4.e5
>>>					Nc4
>>>0:01	8/9	-0.26	156594		1.e4 Kf8 2.Kd3 Ke7 3.e5 Nf5 4.Bd7
>>>					Ng7 5.Ke4 Nxe6
>>>0:02	8/9	-0.15	291263		1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 b5 4.Kd5
>>>					a5 5.Bc6
>>>0:06	9/10	-0.12	658367		1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 Nf5+
>>>					4.Ke4 b5 5.Ke5 Nxe3 6.Bxb5 Ng4+
>>>					7.Kf4 Nxh2
>>>0:12	10/11	-0.15	1465984		1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 h6 4.Kd5
>>>					b5 5.e4 a5 6.e5
>>>0:25	11/12	-0.18	3282649		1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 Nf5+
>>>					4.Ke4 h6 5.a4 a6 6.h3 b5 7.axb5
>>>					Nd6+ 8.Kd5 axb5
>>>1:00	12/13	-0.18	7869328		1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 Nf5+
>>>					4.Ke4 h6 5.a4 a6 6.h3 b5 7.axb5
>>>					Nd6+ 8.Kd5 axb5
>>>2:16	13/14	-0.28	17722817	1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 Nf5+
>>>					4.Ke4 a6 5.a4 b5 6.axb5 axb5 7.Kd3
>>>					Nd6 8.Kc3 h6
>>>5:56	14/15	-0.30	46635573	1.Kd3 Kf6 2.Bd7 Ke7 3.Kd4 Nf5+
>>>					4.Ke4 a6 5.a4 b5 6.axb5 axb5 7.Kd3
>>>					Nd6 8.Kc3 h6 9.Kb4
>>>
>>>jm
>>
>>position after your line Kd3 Kf6 Bd7 Ke7 Kd4 Nf5+
>>[D] 8/p2Bk2p/1p2P1p1/5n2/3K4/P3P3/7P/8 w - -
>>
>>Ke4 looks like the best move, but the score seems to go south for White soon
>>after.  My program plays the line Kd5! NxP Kc6 (kb7 kxa7 etc) which seems to
>>draw.  I wonder if it does draw, and if so, will any program play Kd5.
>>
>>Will
>>
>>ps: Jon, my prog plays Kd3 with a slight + for white, which goes negative after
>>awhile.
>
>After your position, CM8000 still likes Ke4:
>
>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>0:00	3/4	-0.10	1629		1.Ke4 Nd6+ 2.Kd5 b5 3.Bc6 a5
>0:00	4/5	-0.12	5313		1.Ke4 b5 2.Ke5 Nxe3 3.Bxb5 Ng4+
>					4.Kf4 Nxh2
>0:00	5/6	-0.14	14011		1.Ke4 b5 2.Ke5 Nd6 3.Kd5 a5
>0:00	6/7	-0.15	36030		1.Ke4 b5 2.Ke5 Nd6 3.Kd5 a5 4.Bc6
>0:01	7/8	-0.13	118644		1.Ke4 Nd6+ 2.Kd5 b5 3.Kc5 a6 4.Kb6
>					Nc4+ 5.Kxa6 Nxa3 6.Bxb5 Kxe6
>0:03	8/9	-0.34	300107		1.Ke4 Kd6 2.Kf4 Ng7 3.Kg5 Nxe6+
>					4.Bxe6 Kxe6 5.Kh6 Ke7 6.Kxh7 g5
>0:06	9/10	-0.30	745191		1.Ke4 a6 2.a4 b5 3.axb5 axb5 4.Kd3
>					Nd6 5.Kc3 h6 6.Kb4
>0:14	10/11	-0.27	1642465		1.Ke4 a6 2.a4 h6 3.h3 b5 4.axb5
>					axb5 5.Kd3 Nd6 6.Kc3 g5
>0:30	11/12	-0.33	3679209		1.Ke4 a6 2.a4 Kd6 3.Kf4 h6 4.Be8
>					Ne7 5.Bd7 Nd5+ 6.Kf3 Nf6 7.Bc8
>1:40	12/13	-0.30	12335386	1.Ke4 a6 2.h3 h6 3.a4 Kd6 4.Be8
>					Ng7 5.Bxg6 Nxe6 6.Kf3 Nc5 7.Bc2
>					Ke5
>3:58	13/14	-0.33	29553878	1.Ke4 Kd6 2.Kf4 h6 3.Be8 Ne7 4.Bf7
>					a5 5.Ke4 b5 6.Kd3 b4 7.axb4 axb4
>					8.Kc2
>
>After forcing Kd5, it says:
>
>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>0:00	3/4	-0.78	4490		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kd4 Nf5+ 3.Kd5 Nd6
>					4.Bc6 a6
>0:00	4/5	-0.86	10247		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kd4 Ng4 3.h3 Nf6 4.Bc8
>0:00	5/6	-0.82	20284		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kd4 Ng4 3.h3 Nf6 4.Bc8
>					h6 5.Ke5
>0:01	6/7	-0.86	89455		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.a4 Nd6 4.h3
>					h6 5.Kd5 a6
>0:03	7/8	-0.91	268628		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kd4 Nf5+ 3.Kd5 Nd6
>					4.Bc6 b5 5.h3 g5 6.Bd7 a5 7.Bc6
>0:05	8/9	-0.92	569074		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.a4 Nd6 4.Kc7
>					g5 5.Kc6 h5 6.Kd5 a6
>0:10	9/10	-1.42	1181683		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.Kb7 Nxa3
>					4.Kxa7 b5 5.Kb6 b4 6.Kc5 b3 7.Kd4
>0:16	10/11	-1.09	1958586		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.a4 Ne5+ 4.Kc7
>					g5 5.Bc8 g4 6.Kb8 a6 7.Kc7 b5
>0:31	11/12	-1.21	3875436		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.a4 Ne5+ 4.Kc7
>					h5 5.Bc8 Nf3 6.Kb7 Nxh2 7.Kxa7
>					Nf3 8.Kxb6
>1:18	12/13	-1.21	9869253		1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Nc4 3.a4 Ne5+ 4.Kc7
>					h5 5.h4 a5 6.Bc8 Nf3 7.Kxb6 Nxh4
>					8.Kxa5 Nf3 9.Kb6
>3:26	13/14	-1.45	26172248	1...Nxe3+ 2.Kc6 Ng4 3.h3 Ne5+ 4.Kc7
>					g5 5.Bb5 Kxe6 6.Kb7 Kd5 7.Kxa7
>					Kc5 8.Be2 b5 9.Ka6 Nc4
>
>....doesn't look good....
>
>jm

John,

No, it doesn't.  But, strangely enough, Ke4 loses, while Kd5 draws.  Chessmaster
misses the continuation after 2.. Ng4, which is Kb7.

imvho, of course. :)

Will



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