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Subject: Re: Another Clever Problem; Samuel Loyd New York Albion 1857, Att. Dr. Hyatt

Author: Heiner Marxen

Date: 09:27:26 03/07/02

Go up one level in this thread


On March 06, 2002 at 18:45:54, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:

>On March 06, 2002 at 17:35:09, Terry McCracken wrote:
>
>>On March 06, 2002 at 17:33:25, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>
>>>On March 06, 2002 at 17:09:19, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 16:21:22, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 15:59:21, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 13:55:14, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 13:09:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 11:20:17, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/8/8/6P1/6k1/4KR1R w
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Mate in 3
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Terry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This is a mate in 4, not a mate in 3, as confirmed by EGTBs...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dr. Hyatt with all due respect, EGTBs will _not_ help you with this type
>>>>>>>of problem. EGTBs look at it as an endgame where it's assumed the King and both
>>>>>>>Rooks have been moved. Maybe EGTBs can be adjusted for this situation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Castling is the correct solution, which forces mate in 3.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BTW CM8000 in mate mode or in normal mode will find mate in 3 instantly!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This problem created 145 years ago by Samuel Lloyd when he was not yet 16 years
>>>>>>>of age, is still considered one of the most famous problems in chess history.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzzle9/puzz9-6a.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The solution can be found at this link.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzzle9/games/p9_6.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>> Terry McCracken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sorry, but if you check the +EPD+ posted for the position, there is _no_
>>>>>>castling possible.  Which means this is a simple mate in 4 and the EGTB
>>>>>>results are perfect.
>>>>>
>>>>>The position was:
>>>>>8/8/8/8/8/6P1/6k1/4KR1R w
>>>>>
>>>>>if there where no castling possible, shouldn't it have been:
>>>>>8/8/8/8/8/6P1/6k1/4KR1R w -
>>>>>
>>>>>leaving out the "-" probably indicates there might or might not be castle
>>>>>rights.
>>>>>
>>>>>Guess we need to feed the engines all possible combinations...
>>>>>
>>>>>-S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The EPD standard is _very_ specific.  There is no such thing as "castling
>>>>might be legal" because there is no such thing in the game of chess.  It either
>>>>is or is not.
>>>>
>>>>Leaving out the castle status results in invalid FEN.  Putting it in in the
>>>>given position would also be invalid because the rook is missing.
>>>
>>>Tough man to please, then how pray tell can I show such a mate problem?
>>>
>>>Terry
>>
>>Or I should say how do I show this type of mate problem?
>
>The way you did it was just perfect, unless some people prefer the old
>fashion way:
>
>White: Ke1, Rf1, Rh1 g3
>Black: Kg2
>It is Mate in 3, how?
>
>This problem contains all the information needed to be solved.
>
>Then everybody will complain: Why don't you post the diagram!!

Yes, I agree.

Chess problems have a long history and by far predate FEN (and computers).
While FEN is great to code a position that occurs in a game of chess,
i.e. has a history, it is not suited to code typical "chess problems".
It is a matter of fact, that castling rights and ep possibilities are
not part of the information provided with a "chess problem", but are to
be determined by the solver.

Now, this does not occur within a game of chess.  Right.
But, solving "chess problems" with the help of a computer for me
is quite natural, and is topical here, if you ask me.
When I started with my program "chest", it was to solve "problems",
not to play chess.  And older versions had codes for "ep status unknown".


>You can also try
>"Once upon a time, there was a beautiful princess who saw a marvelous
>chess board with ivory and ebony pieces. There was a frog who said to her,
>If you tell me the solution, you will break the spell and I will be
>a handsome prince again. It is mate in 3, you have a white King on e1, two white
>rooks on f1 and h1 respectively, a white pawn in g3 and the black king is in g2.
>The princess looked at the board and asked, yeah, but what's the FEN?.
>And the frog remained a frog for ever and ever"

ROTFL!

Great!  Thanks for making me laugh on a rainy and stressful day!

Cheers,
Heiner



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