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Subject: Re: Another Clever Problem; Samuel Loyd New York Albion 1857, Att. Dr. Hyatt

Author: Terry McCracken

Date: 11:29:51 03/07/02

Go up one level in this thread


On March 07, 2002 at 14:18:47, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On March 07, 2002 at 12:11:12, Terry McCracken wrote:
>
>>On March 07, 2002 at 10:44:02, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On March 07, 2002 at 00:24:32, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 23:46:44, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 17:26:05, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 17:07:51, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 16:55:53, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 15:59:21, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 13:55:14, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 13:09:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On March 06, 2002 at 11:20:17, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/8/8/6P1/6k1/4KR1R w
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Mate in 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Terry
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is a mate in 4, not a mate in 3, as confirmed by EGTBs...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Dr. Hyatt with all due respect, EGTBs will _not_ help you with this type
>>>>>>>>>>of problem. EGTBs look at it as an endgame where it's assumed the King and both
>>>>>>>>>>Rooks have been moved. Maybe EGTBs can be adjusted for this situation?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Castling is the correct solution, which forces mate in 3.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>BTW CM8000 in mate mode or in normal mode will find mate in 3 instantly!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>This problem created 145 years ago by Samuel Lloyd when he was not yet 16 years
>>>>>>>>>>of age, is still considered one of the most famous problems in chess history.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzzle9/puzz9-6a.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The solution can be found at this link.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzzle9/games/p9_6.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Terry McCracken
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sorry, but if you check the +EPD+ posted for the position, there is _no_
>>>>>>>>>castling possible.  Which means this is a simple mate in 4 and the EGTB
>>>>>>>>>results are perfect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You've got to be joking!? If it's the fault of how I set the diagram, please
>>>>>>>>forgive me!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Forget FEN, Forget EPD and look at it as a _position only_ with the only clue
>>>>>>>>Mate in 3!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'll check the rules on what is or is not needed at the end of the FEN.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But really, you must have understood my intent and that this _position_
>>>>>>>>forgeting the *Rule Base* for FEN and or EPD is a mate in 3?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Actually I didn't give it much thought, because the idea of grabbing a
>>>>>>>position that is not legal never entered my mind.  In the position you gave,
>>>>>>>white has no castling rights by the FEN string, and white has no rook to
>>>>>>>castle with either.  Also it is not exactly "white to move" because white
>>>>>>>has already started to make a move but has not completed it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Which was my point in the first place...  what is the interest in grabbing
>>>>>>>a position on the board at some random point in time, rather than grabbing it
>>>>>>>only when one side is to move in a legal position?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How convoluted! Please! I agree you gave it little thought, except for your
>>>>>>defence!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I gave it all the thought it deserved.  I assume _legal_ positions.  I don't
>>>>>care for positions with rooks "in transit" or any other such nonsense since
>>>>>FEN does _not_ allow for such, and for good reason...
>>>>>
>>>>So? Why trample on  a composition of Beauty?
>>>
>>>I didn't trample on _anything_.  I pointed out that you had posted an
>>>invalid FEN position and that was that.
>>>
>>Then explain how please to give the correct FEN for this position, thanks.
>
>The first field is the FEN string describing the 64 squares.  The next field
>is w or b for white-to-move or black-to-move.  The next field is composed of
>1-4 characters...  K means white can castle kingside, Q means white can castle
>queenside, k means black can castle kingside and q means black can castle
>queenside.  "-" means neither side can castle.  The remaining to fields have
>to do with the move number and number of moves since the last irreversable
>move for 50 move draws...
>
>
>Thanks Dr. Hyatt!

Regards,
 Terry
>
>
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Look at the position for what it is. A very clever composition!
>>>
>>>I believe I gave you credit for something "clever".  But I also pointed out
>>>that it was "broken" according to the precise specification for FEN position
>>>strings.
>>>
>>>Ok I made a note of that and gave you a reply somewhere here!:)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I was unaware of these rules with FEN when I posted....I thought maybe you would
>>>>>>see my error, (In this case not knowing the FEN Rules) and understand I was
>>>>>>setting up a Mate in 3 Problem and to attempt to solve it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course this means you would look at it as if I set it up on a *Real* board
>>>>>>and said look Bob; Here's a mate in 3 White to Move, do you see it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Now try your EGTBs with the castling rule, thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>EGTBs don't include castling because it would be a waste of time and
>>>>>>>space.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes I guess it would be 99.999% of the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Terry



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