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Subject: Re: Endgame Test Position

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:31:59 03/08/02

Go up one level in this thread


On March 08, 2002 at 12:29:32, Uri Blass wrote:

>On March 08, 2002 at 12:01:47, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On March 08, 2002 at 00:40:01, Dieter Buerssner wrote:
>>
>>>On March 07, 2002 at 22:50:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 07, 2002 at 22:45:55, Dieter Buerssner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 5b1k/3R4/5P2/p1rB4/8/8/6K1/8 b - -
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>Perhaps I am too naive, but when I watched this game, I first was confident,
>>>>>that it should be a very easy draw. My (stupid?) reasoning was: A computer will
>>>>>not lose KRBKR (when he does not see the exceptional win fast). The position
>>>>>here is KRBPKRBP. The Bs are of opposite color. So, I thought, it should allways
>>>>>be possible, to sac one B for a P, and have an easy draw. Well, I was totally
>>>>>wrong, and so was the knowledge I coded into my engine.
>>>>>
>>>>>How long does your engine need, to avoid a4? How long does it need, to see a
>>>>>convincing winning score after a4? (Kg3 is a forced win, other moves perhaps,
>>>>>too).
>>>
>>>>Crafty decides a4 is not so good pretty quickly (on my laptop here)...
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>>               12->  58.63   1.45   1. ... Rb5 2. Rd8 Kh7 3. Be4+ Kg8 4.
>>>>                                    Rd7 Rb2+ 5. Kg3 Rb6 6. Bd5+ Kh8 7.
>>>>                                    Rf7 Bc5 8. Kf4 a4
>>>
>>>This will draw.
>>>
>>>>If you force a4 and let it search for white:
>>>>
>>>>               11->  19.99   2.18   2. Kf3 Rc1 3. Kf4 Rf1+ 4. Kg5 Re1 5.
>>>>                                    Kg6 Rg1+ 6. Kf7 Bc5 7. Rd8+ Kh7 8.
>>>>                                    Be4+ Kh6 9. Ke6
>>>
>>>While the score does not look too convincing yet, Kf3 will win.
>>>
>>>Thanks for all the answers. However, I'd also be interested in comments about
>>>the "knowledge" above. Was this just bad luck? Or is it just stupid to assume,
>>>that KRBPKRBP with Bs of opposite color should be draw?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Dieter
>>
>>I don't assume draw if both sides have pawns.  It is too easy to get a B
>>pinned and let the pawn slip by  If one side has a KRB and the other has
>>a KRBP then opposite B's should guarantee that the P can't win.  I don't
>>try to get to fancy here because there are too many exceptions when both
>>sides have pawns...
>
>I do not think that 0.00 is a good idea because it means that the program does
>not care about the question if the king is in a bad square but I still believe
>that most KRBP vs KRBP with opposite color bishops are drawn so dividing the
>regular evaluation by 4 in this case to be closer to a draw does not seem to be
>too dangerous.
>
>Uri


I divide it by 2 in this case, which I consider to be perfectly safe, since
it still lets one side with a bad king or strong rook build up a significant
positional advantage in terms of score...

I do this for bishops of opposite colors only, however...



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