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Subject: Re: I just don't get it......

Author: Slater Wold

Date: 03:12:19 03/17/02

Go up one level in this thread


On March 17, 2002 at 05:45:33, Uri Blass wrote:

>On March 17, 2002 at 02:25:25, Slater Wold wrote:
>
>>This position came up on an ICC game:
>>
>>[D]r1b2rk1/pp1n1ppp/4pB2/2R1P3/8/3B4/q4PPP/3Q1RK1 b - - 0 17
>>
>>This is from my log:
>>
>>White(17): Bf6
>>              time used:  31.43
>>              time limit 14.74 (1:39)
>>         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
>>                7     0.21     ++   17. ... Re8!!
>>                7     0.35  -0.87   17. ... Re8 18. Qg4 g6 19. Bb5 Nxc5
>>                                    20. Bxe8 Bd7 21. Bxd7 Nxd7
>>                7     0.72     ++   17. ... gxf6!!
>>                7     1.33  -3.42   17. ... Qa3 18. Qg4 g6 19. Rxc8 Rfxc8
>>                                    20. Be4 Nxf6 21. exf6 Qb3
>>         (4)    7->   1.39  -3.42   17. ... Qa3 18. Qg4 g6 19. Rxc8 Rfxc8
>>                                    20. Be4 Nxf6 21. exf6 Qb3
>>                8     1.66     --   17. ... Qa3
>>         (3)    8     2.00   0.00   17. ... Qa3 18. Bxh7+ Kxh7 19. Qh5+
>>                                    Kg8 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21. Qg5+ Kh7 22.
>>                                    Qh5+ Kg7
>>                8     2.64     ++   17. ... Re8!!
>>                8     4.02  -0.93   17. ... Re8 18. Qh5 h6 19. Qg4 g6 20.
>>                                    Rc7 Qd5 21. Qg3 Nxf6 22. exf6
>>                8->   5.61  -0.93   17. ... Re8 18. Qh5 h6 19. Qg4 g6 20.
>>                                    Rc7 Qd5 21. Qg3 Nxf6 22. exf6
>>                9     6.35     --   17. ... Re8
>>                9    16.54   5.92   17. ... Re8 18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qh5 Qe2
>>                                    20. Qxf7 gxf6 21. Qxe8+ Kxh7 22. Rxc8
>>                                    Nxe5 23. Qg8+ Kh6 24. Rxa8
>>                9    16.88     ++   17. ... Qa3!!
>>              time=17.11  cpu=196%  mat=-2  n=24143380  fh=94%  nps=1411k
>>              ext-> chk=1598422 cap=47309 pp=18507 1rep=176270 mate=14056
>>sing=10
>>              predicted=16  nodes=24143380  evals=2438674
>>              endgame tablebase-> probes done=0  successful=0
>>              hashing-> trans/ref=28%  pawn=99%  used=65%
>>              SMP->  split=482  stop=108  data=8/32  cpu=33.65  elap=17.11
>>
>>I don't think there is a worse move than Qa3.  I cringed when I saw this move
>>played.
>>
>>Oh well, that's why I am playing there, to catch these little things.  So I go
>>back to my engine, and feed it the position, and let it think for 60 seconds.
>>
>>Here is the eval:
>>
>>White(1): setboard r1b2rk1/pp1n1ppp/4pB2/2R1P3/8/3B4/q4PPP/3Q1RK1 b - - 0 17
>>Black(1): go
>>              clearing hash tables
>>              time surplus   0.00  time limit 1:00 (1:00)
>>         nss  depth   time  score   variation (1)
>>starting thread 1
>>         (2)    7->   0.25  -7.16   1. ... Nxc5 2. Qg4 g6 3. Bc4 Qc2 4.
>>                                    Rd1 Qf5
>>                8     0.39     --   1. ... Nxc5
>>                8     0.73  Mat06   1. ... Nxc5 2. Bxh7+ Kxh7 3. Qh5+ Kg8
>>                                    4. Qg4 g6 5. Qh4 Qxf2+ 6. Rxf2 Nd7
>>                                    7. Qh8#
>>                8     1.11     ++   1. ... gxf6!!
>>                8     2.86   0.00   1. ... gxf6 2. Bxh7+ Kxh7 3. Qh5+ Kg8
>>                                    4. Qg4+ Kh7 5. Qh5+
>>                8     3.16     ++   1. ... Re8!!
>>                8     3.98  -0.85   1. ... Re8 2. Bb5 Nxc5 3. Qg4 g6 4.
>>                                    Bxe8 Nd7 5. Bxd7 Bxd7
>>         (2)    8->   6.33  -0.85   1. ... Re8 2. Bb5 Nxc5 3. Qg4 g6 4.
>>                                    Bxe8 Nd7 5. Bxd7 Bxd7
>>                9     7.63     --   1. ... Re8
>>                9     8.97   4.60   1. ... Re8 2. Bxh7+ Kxh7 3. Qh5+ Kg8
>>                                    4. Qg5 Nxf6 5. exf6 Qxf2+ 6. Kxf2 g6
>>                                    7. Rc7 Rd8 8. Re7 a5
>>                9    10.55     ++   1. ... gxf6!!
>>                9    16.50   1.16   1. ... gxf6 2. Bxh7+ Kh8 3. Qh5 Qe2
>>                                    4. Qh6 Qd2 5. Qxd2 Nxc5 6. Qh6
>>                9    19.80     ++   1. ... Nxf6!!
>>                9    21.38  -0.38   1. ... Nxf6 2. exf6 Qb2 3. Bxh7+ Kxh7
>>                                    4. Qh5+ Kg8 5. fxg7 Qxg7 6. Rg5 f6
>>                                    7. Rxg7+ Kxg7 8. Rd1 a5 9. g3
>>         (4)    9->  24.44  -0.38   1. ... Nxf6 2. exf6 Qb2 3. Bxh7+ Kxh7
>>                                    4. Qh5+ Kg8 5. fxg7 Qxg7 6. Rg5 f6
>>                                    7. Rxg7+ Kxg7 8. Rd1 a5 9. g3
>>         (3)   10    28.78  -0.37   1. ... Nxf6 2. exf6 Qb2 3. Bxh7+ Kxh7
>>                                    4. Qh5+ Kg8 5. fxg7 Qxg7 6. Rg5 f6
>>                                    7. Rxg7+ Kxg7 8. Rd1 a5 9. f4 a4 10.
>>                                    Kf2
>>               10->  36.83  -0.37   1. ... Nxf6 2. exf6 Qb2 3. Bxh7+ Kxh7
>>                                    4. Qh5+ Kg8 5. fxg7 Qxg7 6. Rg5 f6
>>                                    7. Rxg7+ Kxg7 8. Rd1 a5 9. f4 a4 10.
>>                                    Kf2
>>               11    51.30  -0.22   1. ... Nxf6 2. exf6 Qb2 3. Bxh7+ Kxh7
>>                                    4. Qh5+ Kg8 5. fxg7 Qxg7 6. Rg5 f6
>>                                    7. Rxg7+ Kxg7 8. Qg4+ Kf7 9. Qh5+ Ke7
>>                                    10. Qc5+ Ke8 11. Rd1 Kf7 12. f4
>>              time=1:00  cpu=234%  mat=-2  n=82822082  fh=90%  nps=1372k
>>              ext-> chk=3645381 cap=287364 pp=75218 1rep=496025 mate=38058 sing=
>>25
>>              predicted=0  nodes=82822082  evals=16376870
>>              endgame tablebase-> probes done=0  successful=0
>>              hashing-> trans/ref=33%  pawn=28%  used=96%
>>              SMP->  split=1927  stop=605  data=7/32  cpu=2:21  elap=1:00
>>
>>
>>Never even evaluates it.  Strange!!
>>
>>Same version, settings, everything.  I know it *probably* has to do with hash
>>and other in-game conditions.  (And yes, positional learning _IS_ disabled.)
>>But it's *very* hard to diagnose a problem that cannot be reproduced.  :(
>>
>>Anything but Nxf6 here is just wrong.  Most programs will evaluate Qa3 (and
>>other losers) but fail low quickly on them, and move on to Nxf6.
>
>
>Here is the output of my program
>
>33018 <first : 1 666 2 44 d7c5
>33028 <first : 2 671 3 138 d7c5 f6e7
>33028 <first : 2 671 3 199 d7c5 f6e7
>33028 <first : 3 626 3 579 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33038 <first : 3 626 4 1494 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33048 <first : 4 626 5 3085 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33058 <first : 4 626 6 4646 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33078 <first : 5 626 8 9466 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33148 <first : 5 626 15 22238 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5
>33218 <first : 6 611 22 35707 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5 f8c5
>33368 <first : 6 611 37 62603 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5 f8c5
>33809 <first : 7 616 81 149815 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5 f8d6 a2b2 d6e5 b2e5
>34290 <first : 7 616 129 245283 d7c5 f6e7 c5d3 e7f8 d3e5 f8d6 a2b2 d6e5 b2e5
>36543 <first : 8 121 354 694264 d7c5 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 h5g4 g7g6 g4h3 a2f2
>f1f2 c8d7
>42111 <first : 8 122 911 1753136 d7f6
>50593 <first : 8 166 1759 3279678 d7f6 e5f6 a2b2 f6g7 b2g7 f1e1 f7f5 c5c1
>58775 <first : 8 167 2577 4827564 a2a3
>64353 <first : 8 347 3135 5860162 a2a3 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3b5 d7f6 e5f6
>65975 <first : 8 347 3297 6154050 a2a3 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3b5 d7f6 e5f6
>112783 <first : 9 152 7978 14960897 a2a3 c5c4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 d3h7 g8h8 h7e4 e6e5
>c4c1
>137368 <first : 9 153 10437 19457049 d7f6
>161863 <first : 9 172 12886 23656321 d7f6 e5f6 a2b2 d1h5 h7h6 f6g7 b2g7 h5e5
>f7f6
>182994 <first : 9 172 14999 27653765 d7f6 e5f6 a2b2 d1h5 h7h6 f6g7 b2g7 h5e5
>f7f6
>351766 <first : 10 -5 31876 57793508 d7f6 e5f6 a2b2 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7
>b2g7 c5g5 c8d7 g5g7 g8g7
>571432 <first : 10 -4 53843 100132014 a2a3
>830174 <first : 10 -4 79717 149055075 f8e8
>985508 <first : 10 -4 95251 178841613 b7b6
>1086783 <first : 10 21 105378 198269682 b7b6 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 f7f5 e5f6
>e6e5 h5h8 g8f7 h8h5 f7e6 h5g4 e6f7 c5c8 f8c8 g4d7
>1128243 <first : 10 21 109523 205910297 b7b6 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 f7f5 e5f6
>e6e5 h5h8 g8f7 h8h5 f7e6 h5g4 e6f7 c5c8 f8c8 g4d7
>1128243 <first : move b7b6
>
>After almost 20 minutes on pIII800 it likes b6
>It has wrong fail high on Qa3 and Re8 but these moves are never get played
>
>Unfortunately it does not know to extend an important line so it need depth 11
>to see that b6 is losing and I did not give it enough time
>
>
>
>After Qa3 it needs some minutes to see a forced mate
>
>33348 <first : 1 -341 3 310 c5c8 a8c8
>33348 <first : 2 -341 3 356 c5c8 a8c8
>33348 <first : 2 -341 3 596 c5c8 a8c8
>33348 <first : 3 -368 3 796 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e4b7
>33368 <first : 3 -368 5 2942 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e4b7
>33368 <first : 4 -368 5 3602 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e4b7
>33408 <first : 4 -368 9 9234 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e4b7
>33428 <first : 5 -368 11 12565 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 d7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e4b7
>33748 <first : 5 -367 43 72839 d1g4
>33788 <first : 5 -337 47 79064 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4
>33828 <first : 5 -337 51 87917 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4
>33899 <first : 6 -347 58 99869 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 a3b3
>34780 <first : 6 -347 146 268433 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 a3b3
>35341 <first : 7 -347 202 372102 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 a3b2 g4g5
>39426 <first : 7 -347 610 1153936 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 a3b2 g4g5
>40738 <first : 8 -352 742 1400916 d1g4 g7g6 c5c8 a8c8 d3e4 a3b2 g4g5 d7c5
>42461 <first : 8 -351 914 1734603 d3h7
>45575 <first : 8 -285 1225 2357658 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 g8g7 h5g5 g7h8 c5c4
>d7f6 e5f6
>64933 <first : 8 -285 3161 6125595 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 g8g7 h5g5 g7h8 c5c4
>d7f6 e5f6
>75158 <first : 9 0 4184 8070473 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 g8g7 h5g5 g7h8 g5h6
>h8g8 h6g5 g8h7 g5h5 h7g8 h5g5
>132100 <first : 9 0 9878 19259522 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 f6g7 g8g7 h5g5 g7h8 g5h6
>h8g8 h6g5 g8h7 g5h5 h7g8 h5g5
>170585 <first : 10 540 13726 26594531 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 h5g5 a3g3 f2g3 g7g6
>c5c7 b7b6 g3g4 d7c5
>274484 <first : 10 540 24116 47248083 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 h5g5 a3g3 f2g3 g7g6
>c5c7 b7b6 g3g4 d7c5
>348731 <first : 11 9987 31541 61190464 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 h5g5 d7f6 e5f6 a3g3
>h2g3 g7g6 g5h6 f8e8 h6g7
>386656 <first : 11 9987 35333 68946263 d3h7 g8h7 d1h5 h7g8 h5g5 d7f6 e5f6 a3g3
>h2g3 g7g6 g5h6 f8e8 h6g7
>386656 <first : move d3h7
>
>Uri


After b6 is mate in 8.

Bxh7+ Kh8 Qg4 gxf6 Qh4 Qxf2+ Rxf2 Kg7 exf6+ Nxf6 Rg5+ Kh8 Be4+ Nh5 Qxh5#



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