Author: Oliver Roese
Date: 06:59:31 03/21/02
Go up one level in this thread
Hi! On March 20, 2002 at 23:26:53, Slater Wold wrote: >You've done a lot for me over the last week or so, so I sat down with a GM >friend on ICC and had him look over this position for you. I removed the GM's >name to protect him since he plays on ICC frequently. He is 2560+. If you'd >like to know his name, I will tell you. I thought everyone might like to see >his thoughts, that's why I didn't just e-mail this to you. > >While it's not the most detailed explanation in the world, I think it will help. > It's interesting, thank you. >I started a new thread, just to make sure you saw this. > >So here it is, the start position is: > >[D]r2q1rk1/pbp1bppp/1p2pn2/8/3P1B2/2PB1N2/PP2QPPP/R4RK1 b - - 0 1 > > >--- Log begins (C:\Program Files\Internet Chess Club\BlitzIn 2\GM.txt) --- > >(GM) kibitzes: ok > >(GM) kibitzes: mex me please > >mex (GM) > >(GM) is now an examiner of game 165. > >Project(C) kibitzes: there you go. ok, i set the board up now > >(kibitzed to 2 people) > >(I setup the board.) > >(GM) kibitzes: ok this pos ? > >Project(C) kibitzes: Yes. This is it. > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: aha > >(GM) kibitzes: no forced victory , no extra queen :)) > >Project(C) kibitzes: And here is the question: c5 is the correct move here. >(after looking at it forever) but WHY! > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: lol > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: No. :( > >Project(C) kibitzes: haha! it is black to move. ;( > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >tomove black > >Game 165: Project sets the position so it is Black to move. > >(GM) kibitzes: so this ? > >Project(C) kibitzes: c5 is is best here, correct? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: i think so > >(GM) kibitzes: i would play > >Project(C) kibitzes: ok, now simple question: why! > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: why c5 is best ? > >Project(C) kibitzes: yes > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: because its only active plan for black > >(GM) kibitzes: if black play passive > >(GM) kibitzes: re8 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Re8 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rad1 > >(GM) kibitzes: then rd1 > >(GM) kibitzes: and c5 cant be played > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rad1 > >(GM) kibitzes: if black play passiveb > >(GM) kibitzes: then starts > >Project(C) kibitzes: ok. so what's the plan after c5? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: attack > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: c5 > >(GM) kibitzes: plan is to finish development > >(GM) kibitzes: actually white stands better > >(GM) kibitzes: so black dont have very active plans > >(GM) kibitzes: idea is bf3 actually > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rad1 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bxf3 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qxf3 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: cxd4 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: cxd4 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Nd5 > >(GM) kibitzes: etc > >(GM) kibitzes: here black stands ok > >(GM) kibitzes: weak izolated pawn > >Project(C) kibitzes: ok > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: i am just looking.....amazment. ;) > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: :) > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Be5 > >(GM) kibitzes: this though > >Project(C) kibitzes: so c5 for development. and to get the isolated pawn? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >(GM) kibitzes: yep idea > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: dxc5 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bxc5 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rad1 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qe7 This move ist the most natural one, but it seems too lose immedeatly. > >Project(C) kibitzes: what about...... > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >(GM) kibitzes: no was b4 > >Project(C) kibitzes: ok > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: ok > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rad1 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Nd5 > With this "trick" black protects his bishop. >(GM) kibitzes: probably this > >(GM) kibitzes: but actually anyway white stands better > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bc1 > 15.Bc1 is the most nice one, but a computeranlaysis lets me doubt it is the best one. Anyway, the surprising 15.Bxh7!+ seems to win by force! Lets see: 15...Kxh7 16.Ng5+ A)16...Kg8 17.Rxd5 Bxd5 18.Qh5 Be4 19.Nxe4 is an easy win. B)16...Kg6 17.Qd3+ f5 18.Qg3! Nxf4 19.Nxe6+ Kf7 20.Ng5+! Kg6 21.Nh3+ and white wins. >Project(C) kibitzes: what about..... > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >(GM) kibitzes: i like white > >(GM) kibitzes: aha > >You're at the end of the game. > >Game 165: Project moves: Rad1 > >Game 165: Project moves: Qc8 > >Project(C) kibitzes: good? bad? ugly? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Ne5 > >(GM) kibitzes: only way :) > >(GM) kibitzes: for black > >(GM) kibitzes: ugly :) > >(GM) kibitzes: but its only way :) > >Project(C) kibitzes: lol > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: Project moves: Rd8 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bg5 > >(GM) kibitzes: i dont like black much > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Be7 No white can sacrifice again (phoenix): 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.Bxh7+ Kxh7 18.Qh5+ Kg8 19.Qxf7+ Kh8 20.Rde1 Bxg2 (otherwise black has no answer to Re3-h3) 21.Kxg2 and white wins somehow. > >Project(C) kibitzes: i was thinking...... > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: Project backs up 1. > >Game 165: Project moves: Kf8 > Desparation...:) >(GM) kibitzes: aha ... > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bxf6 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: gxf6 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Nxf7 > And white wins. >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qc6 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Be4 > >Project(C) kibitzes: lol > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: geez > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: u are comp u can find it better :)) > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qxe4 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qxe4 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bxe4 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Nxd8 > >(GM) kibitzes: sems o > >(GM) kibitzes: ok for white > >Project(C) kibitzes: lol > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Kxf7 Taking the knight leads to an immedeate loss, asa ny chessengine can show. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qh5+ > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Kf8 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qh6+ > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Ke7 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Qxh7+ > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Kd6 > >Project(C) kibitzes: white is still better. no matter. :( > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Be4+ > >(GM) kibitzes: winning > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bd5 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: c4 > >(GM) kibitzes: etc > >(GM) kibitzes: so > >(GM) kibitzes: in start position > >(GM) kibitzes: white stands clearly better First thing to note. > >(GM) kibitzes: as for me > >Project(C) kibitzes: very nice. so in start, black is bad. and probably cannot >get better? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: i would not play c5 Notice that. > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 22. (begining) > >(GM) kibitzes: dont have good idea > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Rc8 > >(GM) kibitzes: something like this > >(GM) kibitzes: anyway white stands better > >(GM) kibitzes: yep if play correct for both sides > >Project(C) kibitzes: i understand. > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: then white will have advantage > >(GM) kibitzes: u are right :) > >Project(C) kibitzes: what about Bd6 here? > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Project(C) kibitzes: not here, at start > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bd6 > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Ne5 > >(GM) kibitzes: white will not exchange of course :) > >Game 165: (GM) backs up 1. > >Project(C) kibitzes: ;) > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >Game 165: (GM) moves: Bg5 > >Project(C) kibitzes: depends on who i am playing! > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: still big advantage > >Project(C) kibitzes: yes. > >(kibitzed to 3 people) > >(GM) kibitzes: no > >(GM) kibitzes: logical is not exchange > >(GM) kibitzes: white stands better > > >END > > > >Later in personal tells that did not get logged, he said that if played >perfectly, black had very little chance to win this. However, he thought a draw >was very possible, if white played passive. > >There you go, I hoped it helps. ;) FM Oliver Roese
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