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Subject: Re: Sorry,Fritz 7 could be stronger,NPS means nothing between 2 programs

Author: martin fierz

Date: 18:58:25 04/12/02

Go up one level in this thread


On April 12, 2002 at 21:39:00, Joe McCarro wrote:

>On April 12, 2002 at 20:44:38, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On April 12, 2002 at 17:05:45, Mark Young wrote:
>>
>>>On April 12, 2002 at 14:28:13, martin fierz wrote:
>>>
>>>>>On April 12, 2002 at 03:43:16, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry,Fritz 7 could be stronger,NPS means nothing between 2 programs
>>>>
>>>>NPS does not mean everything, but it does not mean nothing either.
>>>
>>>I did not say that it means nothing, I said NPS means nothing between 2 programs
>>>that are not the same.
>>>
>>>
>>> typically,
>>>>NPS is a "design choice" of the programmer - smart but slow or less smart but
>>>>faster.
>>>
>>>This is clearly wrong here, are you selling us that you can tell how smart a
>>>program is by NPS? Your understanding is limited, if this is your bias.
>>
>>my understanding is quite all right, thank you :-)
>>NPS is very much a function of how smart a program is. of course, if you write a
>>program in basic, and get low NPS, this does not mean that your program is
>>smart! i never said that. if you compare well-optimized engines (take some of
>>the top commercials, fritz, junior, shredder, hiarcs, whatever), THEN NPS is a
>>measure of how much work the program does on every node. in my checkers program,
>>for example, i can turn on or off several features like enhanced transposition
>>cutoffs, evaluation-based forward pruning and arbitrary parts of my move
>>ordering. i can also add or remove parts of the evaluation function. everything
>>i turn off makes my program faster in NPS, but it plays worse. the difference
>>between smart and dumb is a factor 2 in NPS for my program.
>>this is the design choice i was talking about, and it is the reason why people
>>here always say "NPS means nothing". if you are talking about this kind of
>>difference in NPS, it *does* mean nothing. talking about a factor 50, without
>>the penalty of being dumb in return is another matter entirely.
>>
>>
>>>How strong was Deep Blue 1997? How strong are todays micros? If you look at the
>>>facts based on games played....It is clear your argument does not hold water.
>>>What is Clear based on the data.  Todays top micros are playing better then 2700
>>>elo chess. And playing very close if not better then DEEP BLUE of 1997.
>>
>>facts based on what? like rebel-van wely 2-2 or huebner-fritz 3-3? i don't think
>>that these results are "very close" to defeating kasparov by 3.5-2.5! look at
>>what kasparov does to these 2 guys:
>>searching the big2000 database for kasparov - van wely gives me 4 games at
>>standard time control - 4-0 for kasparov. in a match against huebner in '85
>>kasparov won 4.5-1.5. in matches at STC, where humans prepare and learn, i have
>>yet to see "better than 2700"... i know no other serious results than the 2
>>above.
>
>
>What about Gulko??

you should not compare apples and oranges! gulko had to play at the much faster
G/60 time control which favors the computer. additionally, the match was against
4 different programs, so he did not have the chance to repeat an opening (or at
least try...) against the same opponent.

cheers
  martin



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