Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 12:14:10 04/15/02
Go up one level in this thread
On April 15, 2002 at 15:04:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On April 15, 2002 at 13:38:56, Roy Eassa wrote: > >>On April 15, 2002 at 13:30:07, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On April 15, 2002 at 13:23:54, Roy Eassa wrote: >>> >>>>On April 15, 2002 at 12:40:09, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 15, 2002 at 11:52:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>"Can you name any GM that would play a single game that looks as bad as >>>>>> that one?" >>>>> >>>>>I can off the top of my head...and I'm sure I can find them of just about any GM >>>>>play. >>>>> >>>>>But here is one GM for you since that all you asked for. >>>>> >>>>>GM Vassily Ivanchuk!!! >>>>> >>>>>[Event "FIDE WCh KO Final"] >>>>>[Site "Moscow RUS"] >>>>>[Date "2002.01.16"] >>>>>[Round "7.1"] >>>>>[White "Ponomariov,R"] >>>>>[Black "Ivanchuk,V"] >>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>[WhiteElo "2727"] >>>>>[BlackElo "2717"] >>>>>[EventDate "2002.01.16"] >>>>>[ECO "C11"] >>>>> >>>>>1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxe4 5. Nxe4 Be7 6. Bxf6 Bxf6 7. Nf3 >>>>>O-O 8. Qd2 Be7 9. O-O-O Qd5 10. Nc3 Qa5 11. a3 Nd7 12. Kb1 Qb6 13. Qe3 Nf6 >>>>>14. Ne5 Rd8 15. Bc4 Bd7 16. Bb3 Be8 17. Rhe1 Bf8 18. g4 Nd5 19. Qf3 c6 20. >>>>>Ne4 Qc7 21. c4 Ne7 22. Ng5 Nc8 23. c5 1-0 >>>> >>>> >>>>I don't think Ivanchuk showed quite the same positional cluelessness in this >>>>game as Shredder showed against Smirin. >>>> >>>>But anyway, my contention is NOT that "Every GM is always better than >>>>computers." My contention is this: >>>> >>>>"Many GMs can, and SOME probably will (within 5 or 10 years), acquire the skills >>>>and techniques necessary to consistently outscore the top PC chess programs." >>>> >>>>I frequently read posts that state that in the last couple years GMs have lost >>>>more games than they have won against top PCs. That may be true, but it is >>>>COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the contention that: >>>> >>>>"Many GMs can, and SOME probably will (within 5 or 10 years), acquire the skills >>>>and techniques necessary to consistently outscore the top PC chess programs." >>>> >>>>The contention could be wrong. But I don't think one should completely CLOSE >>>>one's mind to the possibility that it may be accurate. There are concrete >>>>reasons to believe that future results may differ from past results. And, of >>>>course, your mileage may vary. :-) >>> >>>Also there is a huge difference between (a) making a tactical error and losing >>>a game and (b) not understanding the position at all until it is way too late >>>to do anything about it. >> >> >> >>That's pretty much what I tried to say, except I am not strong enough to know if >>Ivanchuk lost only because of a tactical error. I was giving Mark the benefit >>of the doubt that Ivanchuk was outplayed positionally -- but not to the degree >>that Shredder was! > > >Being out-played positionally is also not uncommon. That is what separates >GMs from super-GM players. But you won't find GM players that have huge >holes in their positional understanding. IE king safety. Simple endgame >pawn structures. Etc... yes they get "out-thought". But not by 1800 >players... I agree! I've never seen an 1800 player beat a 2500 player yet! It may happen but if it does the GM was sleeping....I mean really sleeping;)
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