Author: Don Dailey
Date: 12:57:14 07/17/98
Go up one level in this thread
On July 17, 1998 at 13:49:55, Roberto Waldteufel wrote: > >On July 16, 1998 at 22:17:47, Don Dailey wrote: > >> [snip] >>I like your idea a lot, as a separate event called the "World >>computer chess programmers contest" as you suggest. However >>I don't think it should REPLACE the WMCCC. To make YOUR >>suggested event fair (to test the algorithms and quality of >>the ideas) you would probably not want to allow assembly >>language programs as that tends to be grossly unfair to >>the other platforms being developed on. I really think >>you would have to specify a single machine to do this >>correctly and require the programs to be ANSI C. The >>platform should probably be Alpha's if they are available >>as they are the hottest machines for chess right now. And >>it wouldn't be fair for someone who is developing on INTEL >>for instance to face a competitor who has his own ALPHA at >>home and writes assembly code for it. >>Also the machines should be supplied and be exactly the same >>so there is no issue of who can afford to bring what. >> >>But you can see there are a lot of logistical problems here. >> >> >>- Don > > >Hi Don, > >The more restrictions you add, the more programmers are excluded. I program in >32-bit compiled Basic, and tweak intensively used code with Assembler, on a >Pentium 333, so I guess that would disqualify me on three counts? I don't think >there can be much argument that Assembler is best for performance, but harder to >program in. So if a programmer accepts the challenge and puts in the extra >effort to write an Assembler program that does exactly the same as an eqivalent >C program, but twice as fast, surely this is a greater programming achievement? >I don't think it is possible to completely separate "programming" from hardware. >Programmers and programs exist only because of the hardware that supports them. >To my mind, the "best chess programmer" is hardware dependant. It is about >squeazing best possible chess out of a given hardware configuration, and as such >I think that the "best programmer" of an Alpha is a different thing from the >"best programmer" of an Intel. And in both cases, the programmer that writes an >efficient Assembler program is likely to be the one to achieve the necessary >efficiency,regardless of hardware. > >If it is not to be "anything goes" in terms of programming language, you get >into a minefield of who to allow and who to exclude. What's wrong with Pascal, >for instance? In the format you suggest, it should be called the "Chess >C-programmer's Championship"! > >I don't care if I am outclassed by faster hardware - I have nothing to prove, >and my opponent has everything to lose. I relish the opportunity to pit my >creation against the best opposition it can get. You don't improve by playing >easy games. My program is certainly not strong enough to qualify for a >restricted entry WCCC, but it is getting better bit by bit, and the more games >it gets, the more ideas I get of what needs to be worked on. > >Best wishes, >Roberto I wasn't really that serious about making everyone use some particular language. I was just taking the idea of fairness a little farther than you are. You complain that this kind of tournament would EXCLUDE you since your program in written in Basic with assembly. Maybe this helps you understand how I feel about having any restrictions. I am in the same boat with the format you suggest. It is interesting to note that your suggestion works quite nicely in your favor and my own distaste of these restriction work nicely in my favor! But you would not be excluded from such an event any more that I would be excluded from your event. You would just have to adapt your program (rewrite in C.) To compete in your event I could bring my program as is, or completely rewrite it to give me a small chance of winning. Does any one of these scenarios seem fair to you? But in a way, your suggestion IS fair. If you specify in advance exactly what hardware is allowed and all the rules, everyone has the same chance and can choose to enter or not. But one really big problem is that we don't have enough tournaments as it is. Segmenting and restricting the very few we do have strikes me as a really bad idea. Having said that, I would love to see any tournament and would probably show up even if I didn't like the format. - Don
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