Author: martin fierz
Date: 15:09:28 04/29/02
Go up one level in this thread
On April 29, 2002 at 17:46:04, Otello Gnaramori wrote: >On April 29, 2002 at 17:13:31, martin fierz wrote: > >>On April 29, 2002 at 16:55:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On April 29, 2002 at 16:15:27, Roy Eassa wrote: >>> >>>>On April 29, 2002 at 15:50:21, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 29, 2002 at 13:56:58, Roy Eassa wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>How do longer time controls affect humans and computers? >>>>>> >>>>>>For humans, the extra time mainly provides better "debugging" of one's analysis. >>>>>> It also gives more chances to find different lines and greater depth, but these >>>>>>are quite secondary for human GMs, IMHO. >>>>>> >>>>>>For computers, better debugging is (almost) not an issue. They make no tactical >>>>>>errors within their horizons. What the extra time gives computers is mainly >>>>>>greater search depth. But doubling the time does not even add 1 ply usually. >>>>>> >>>>>>So, which factor makes the bigger difference, GMs getting debugging that's twice >>>>>>as good or computers getting less than 1 ply of greater depth? >>>>>> >>>>>>When GMs lose to computers, it's *almost always* due to insufficient debugging. >>>>>>Doubling the time (for example) can make a HUGE difference here. >>>>>> >>>>>>When computers lose to GMs, it's *occasionally* due to insufficient depth that >>>>>>could be cured by doubling the time. >>>>>> >>>>>>Obviously, both humans and GMs play stronger on an *absolute* scale when given >>>>>>more time. But I think it's most likely that GMs benefit *proportionally* much >>>>>>MORE than computers do from the additional time. >>>>> >>>>>] >>>>>It is trivial to test. play some game/1 game/5 game/15 and game/60 games >>>>>vs the same GM. See what happens. I already know. :) >>>> >>>> >>>>Trivial? Maybe YOU have a human GM lying around your house, waiting to do this, >>>>but I don't! ;-) >>> >>> >>>Play such a series of games against _any_ human... the resulting curve will >>>be roughly the same... >> >>dear bob, >> >>if you have such numbers, could you please post them? there are people here who >>believe in things like "humans get tired if they think for a long time" and >>other crazy stuff like that - i have no numbers to disprove their statements, >>but i know they are wrong. do me a favor please :-) >> >>aloha >> martin > >Martin you should get a course in Basic Human Physiology before talking so harsh >about scientific statements. >We are not robots, we usually get tired (mentally and/or physically), we need to >eat and we also need sleep sometimes :) > >w.b.r. >Otello dear otello, you know what i am talking about. of course i don't want to dispute the fact that humans get tired and have to sleep - i'm not that stupid, i hope :-) this is about "standard time control (40/2h)" vs. rapid games as in the smirin and gulko matches. i have been playing tournament chess for 15 years. i played two seasons in the highest league in switzerland. i have a LOT of experience playing chess at long and at short time controls. i have also experienced total exhaustion after a game of chess which lasted for 7 hours and had 3 time-trouble phases. in the few games where i mangaged to beat IMs, i got so nervous i could hardly think any more. of course humans can and do get tired. but during the course of a chess game you also have the chance to get up, walk around, drink something, eat something, and relax for a few minutes. in "normal" chess games, a player will feel the mental effort, but usually players are well prepared for this - after all, they play 4+ hours every game... the effect of getting tired is simply not comparable with the effect that time trouble has on your game. there is an order of magnitude of difference in the kind of mistakes that the two things produce. all grandmasters are complaining how much the new fide time control has made their play deteriortate. read any chess magazine. this is a relative moderate cutback from 40moves in 2 hours to 40 in 90' or something like that. aloha martin
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