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Subject: Re: Computer chess vs. computer checkers and other games

Author: Miguel A. Ballicora

Date: 08:45:22 05/06/02

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On May 06, 2002 at 00:01:22, Russell Reagan wrote:

>On May 05, 2002 at 06:54:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>how many possible positions are in 8*8 checkers?
>>
>>I think that there are only 32 squares and 4 kind of pieces and it means that
>>5^32 is an upper bound for the number of position(a square may be empty)
>>
>>5^32 is only an upper bound and the number of practical positions to analyze may
>>be clearly smaller.
>>
>>If you also remember that you probably do not need to search until the end of
>>the game in order to play the best move then it seems that checkers is a game
>>that is likely to be solved in the near future if it is not practically solved
>>today.
>
>In addition to that, in draughts they have 8 man endgame tablebases as opposed
>to the incomplete 6 man tablebases chess has. Since there are fewer pieces on
>the board in draughts to begin with (24 in draughts, 32 in chess) this is even
>more significant.
>
>In addition to THAT, there are (relative to chess) fewer moves to look at in
>each position. Since each piece can only move to either 2 or 4 squares, it's
>less. In addition to that, a lot of the moves are clearly losing after only a
>few ply of search, so you have a lower branching factor, in addition to faster
>move generation and search because of the simplicity of the game, you can search
>deeper in a shorter amount of time (compared to chess).
>
>For example, a freeware draughts program searched to 13 ply in 0.86 seconds.
>Fritz on my same machine takes 1 minute and 20 seconds to reach 13 ply. So,
>chess's top programs can't search anywhere near as deep as a freeware draughts
>program, and I imagine that Chinook probably reaches even greater depths than
>this simple freeware draughts program. Fritz gets around 300 Knps on my machine,
>and this simple draughts program gets 650 Knps.
>
>In a 1 minute search, Fritz reaches ply 12. Freeware draughts program reaches
>ply 17 at 10 s.
>
>I personally don't see how any human could contend with even a simple draughts
>playing program given it's more tactical nature than chess, but apparently
>Marion Tinsley was able to contend with Chinook before he died, although I think
>Chinook won the match. But I think Tinsley had one game where he forfeited or

Tinsley won the first match. 2-3 years later, Tinsley forfeited the match for
health reasons when the score was tied (all draws). That is how chinook become
the #1, but it did not show superiority over Tinsley at that time.

Regards,
Miguel


>something. I'm not sure what happened really.
>
>Russell



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