Author: Vine Smith
Date: 06:23:20 05/09/02
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2002 at 09:04:30, Uri Blass wrote:
>On May 09, 2002 at 08:27:41, Vine Smith wrote:
>
>>On May 09, 2002 at 08:05:27, Vine Smith wrote:
>>
>>>On May 09, 2002 at 07:15:24, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:46:45, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:17:15, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:04:57, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 03:02:52, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/3Q3k/p2p1q2/P2P4/6K1/8 b - - 0 71
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This is from a game I played last nite against Crafty 18.14. I was using Deep
>>>>>>>>Junior 7.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am unsure what the other guy was using (HW), although I know it was an SMP
>>>>>>>>system. No idea about TBs, or anything like that. I have over 20GB of TBs,
>>>>>>>>3/4/5 and a lot of 6's.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Here is the entire game:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Crafty 18.14 - Deep Junior 7 [A29]
>>>>>>>>(2), 08.05.2002
>>>>>>>>[-0.12]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 128MB, jbook.ctg
>>>>>>>> 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.0-0 Be6 last book
>>>>>>>>move -0.12/15 9 8.d3 (Qc2) 8...f6 2054kN/s -0.05/15 8 9.Be3 Nd4 2268kN/s
>>>>>>>>-0.06/16 4 10.Nh4 (Rc1) 10...g5 1924kN/s -0.11/14 6 11.Nf3 c6 2174kN/s
>>>>>>>>0.00/14 0 12.Ne4 g4 2152kN/s 0.19/15 6 13.Nxd4 exd4 2016kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>>14.Bf4 (Bd2) 14...Nd5 1921kN/s -0.02/16 6 15.Bd2 (Qd2) 15...Rg8 2055kN/s
>>>>>>>>0.09/14 8 16.Rc1 Qb6 2188kN/s 0.00/16 0 17.Qa4 (b4) 17...a5 2048kN/s
>>>>>>>>0.13/14 6 18.a3 f5 2393kN/s -0.08/15 2 19.Ng5 Bd7 2324kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>>20.b4 (Nf7) 20...Bh6 2301kN/s -0.19/13 15 21.f4 gxf3 2222kN/s -0.18/14 0
>>>>>>>>22.Nxf3 Be3+ 2349kN/s -0.22/14 8 23.Bxe3 (Kh1) 23...Nxe3 2014kN/s -0.37/12
>>>>>>>>3 24.Rf2 f4 2619kN/s -0.33/14 3 25.gxf4 (Rc5) 25...Bh3 2673kN/s -0.81/13 9
>>>>>>>> 26.Ne1 Qd8 2779kN/s -0.51/14 13 27.Qb3 (Rc5) 27...Rg6 2880kN/s -0.64/13 17
>>>>>>>> 28.Rc5 (f5) 28...a4 2781kN/s -0.67/12 9 29.Qa2 Qf6 2806kN/s -0.66/13 14
>>>>>>>>30.Rg5 (b5) 30...Be6 2238kN/s -0.46/15 16 31.Rxg6 Qxg6 2227kN/s -0.59/15 11
>>>>>>>> 32.Qd2 (Qb2) 32...Bd5 2270kN/s -0.49/16 24 33.f5 Qg4 2529kN/s -0.27/16 20
>>>>>>>>34.b5 0-0-0 2814kN/s -0.21/14 7 35.Qa5 (bxc6) 35...Rg8 2948kN/s -0.62/13 7
>>>>>>>>36.bxc6 (Qa8+) 36...Bxc6 2885kN/s -0.15/14 23 37.Qc5 (Qe5) 37...Qg5 2636kN/s
>>>>>>>>-0.55/14 7 38.Nf3 Qg7 2690kN/s -0.60/14 1 39.Ne1 Qf6 2500kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>>40.Nf3 h5 2564kN/s -0.75/15 0 41.h4 (Kh1) 41...Rg3 2683kN/s -0.47/13 6
>>>>>>>>42.Kh2 Rg7 2734kN/s -0.45/14 0 43.Bh3 Ng4+ 2351kN/s -0.20/15 0 44.Bxg4
>>>>>>>>hxg4 2413kN/s -0.49/15 4 45.Ng5 Rxg5 2568kN/s -0.14/15 14 46.hxg5 Qxg5
>>>>>>>>2699kN/s -0.23/15 8 47.Kg1 g3 2802kN/s -0.28/16 8 48.Rg2 Qe3+ 2526kN/s
>>>>>>>>-0.52/16 22 49.Kf1 Kd7 3054kN/s 0.00/17 24 50.Rxg3 (Qc4) 50...Qf4+ 2399kN/s
>>>>>>>> -0.67/14 3 51.Rf3 Bxf3 2273kN/s 0.00/15 0 52.exf3 Qxf3+ 2139kN/s 0.00/15
>>>>>>>>0 53.Kg1 Qg3+ 2184kN/s -0.37/14 2 54.Kh1 Qd6 2666kN/s -0.11/14 20 55.Qa7
>>>>>>>>(Qb5+) 55...Qh6+ 2006kN/s -0.37/14 4 56.Kg2 (Kg1) 56...Qd2+ 2173kN/s
>>>>>>>>-0.37/14 3 57.Kg1 Qe3+ 2338kN/s -0.37/15 0 58.Kg2 (Kh1) 58...Qg5+ 2401kN/s
>>>>>>>>-0.07/14 9 59.Kh2 Qh4+ 2340kN/s -0.07/14 4 60.Kg2 Qg4+ 2334kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>> 61.Kh2 (Kh1) 61...Qe2+ 2860kN/s 0.00/15 20 62.Kg1 (Kh1) 62...Qd1+ 2315kN/s
>>>>>>>>0.06/13 2 63.Kf2 Qc2+ 2867kN/s 0.00/14 0 64.Ke1 (Kg1) 64...Qc1+ 2631kN/s
>>>>>>>>0.00/12 4 65.Kf2 Qf4+ 2656kN/s 0.00/13 0 66.Kg2 Ke7 2760kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>>67.Qxb7+ Kf6 2193kN/s #1/16 0 68.Qc6+ (Qe4) 68...Kxf5 1880kN/s 0.00/16 8
>>>>>>>>69.Qc8+ Kg6 1704kN/s 0.00/17 13 70.Qg8+ Kh5 1559kN/s #1/18 0 71.Qd5+
>>>>>>>>(Qh8+) 71...Qg5+ 2119kN/s 0.00/18 2 72.Qxg5+ Kxg5 0kN/s 0.00/3 0 73.Kg3
>>>>>>>>Kf5 398kN/s #20/62 0 74.Kf3 Ke5 93kN/s #20/62 0 75.Kg4 Kd5 1135kN/s
>>>>>>>>#20/61 0 76.Kf4 Kc5 1792kN/s #20/61 0 77.Ke5 Kc6 1521kN/s #20/62 0
>>>>>>>>78.Kxd4 Kd6 #20/1 0 79.Kc4 Kc6 #18/1 0 80.Kb4 Kd5 #17/1 0 81.Kxa4 Kc5
>>>>>>>>#16/1 0 82.Ka5 Kc6 #16/1 0 83.d4 Kd5 #14/1 0 84.Kb6 Kxd4 #13/1 0
>>>>>>>>85.a4 Kc4 #12/1 0 86.a5 Kd5 #11/1 0 87.a6 Kc4 #10/1 0 88.a7 Kd4 #9/1
>>>>>>>>0 89.a8Q Ke3 #9/1 0 90.Qf8 Ke4 #7/1 0 91.Kc6 Kd3 #6/1 0 92.Qf3+ Kd2
>>>>>>>>#5/1 0 93.Kd5 Ke1 #4/1 0 94.Qg2 Kd1 #4/1 0 95.Kd4 Kc1 #2/1 0 96.Kc3
>>>>>>>>Kb1 #1/1 0 97.Qb2# 1-0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And PGN:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[Event "FICS rated blitz game"]
>>>>>>>>[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
>>>>>>>>[Date "2002.05.08"]
>>>>>>>>[Time "00:42:28"]
>>>>>>>>[Round "-"]
>>>>>>>>[White "tjfritz"]
>>>>>>>>[Black "Project"]
>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2450"]
>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2579"]
>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "300+5"]
>>>>>>>>[Mode "ICS"]
>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be6
>>>>>>>>8. d3 f6 9. Be3 Nd4 10. Nh4 g5 11. Nf3 c6 12. Ne4 g4 13. Nxd4 exd4 14. Bf4
>>>>>>>>Nd5 15. Bd2 Rg8 16. Rc1 Qb6 17. Qa4 a5 18. a3 f5 19. Ng5 Bd7 20. b4 Bh6
>>>>>>>>21. f4 gxf3 22. Nxf3 Be3+ 23. Bxe3 Nxe3 24. Rf2 f4 25. gxf4 Bh3 26. Ne1
>>>>>>>>Qd8 27. Qb3 Rg6 28. Rc5 a4 29. Qa2 Qf6 30. Rg5 Be6 31. Rxg6 Qxg6 32. Qd2
>>>>>>>>Bd5 33. f5 Qg4 34. b5 O-O-O 35. Qa5 Rg8 36. bxc6 Bxc6 37. Qc5 Qg5 38. Nf3
>>>>>>>>Qg7 39. Ne1 Qf6 40. Nf3 h5 41. h4 Rg3 42. Kh2 Rg7 43. Bh3 Ng4+ 44. Bxg4
>>>>>>>>hxg4 45. Ng5 Rxg5 46. hxg5 Qxg5 47. Kg1 g3 48. Rg2 Qe3+ 49. Kf1 Kd7 50. Rxg3
>>>>>>>>Qf4+ 51. Rf3 Bxf3 52. exf3 Qxf3+ 53. Kg1 Qg3+ 54. Kh1 Qd6 55. Qa7 Qh6+ 56. Kg2
>>>>>>>>Qd2+ 57. Kg1 Qe3+ 58. Kg2 Qg5+ 59. Kh2 Qh4+ 60. Kg2 Qg4+ 61. Kh2 Qe2+ 62. Kg1
>>>>>>>>Qd1+ 63. Kf2 Qc2+ 64. Ke1 Qc1+ 65. Kf2 Qf4+ 66. Kg2 Ke7 67. Qxb7+ Kf6 68. Qc6+
>>>>>>>>Kxf5 69. Qc8+ Kg6 70. Qg8+ Kh5 71. Qd5+ Qg5+ 72. Qxg5+ Kxg5 73. Kg3 Kf5
>>>>>>>>74. Kf3 Ke5 75. Kg4 Kd5 76. Kf4 Kc5 77. Ke5 Kc6 78. Kxd4 Kd6 79. Kc4 Kc6
>>>>>>>>80. Kb4 Kd5 81. Kxa4 Kc5 82. Ka5 Kc6 83. d4 Kd5 84. Kb6 Kxd4 85. a4 Kc4
>>>>>>>>86. a5 Kd5 87. a6 Kc4 88. a7 Kd4 89. a8=Q Ke3 90. Qf8 Ke4 91. Kc6 Kd3 92. Qf3+
>>>>>>>>Kd2 93. Kd5 Ke1 94. Qg2 Kd1 95. Kd4 Kc1 96. Kc3 Kb1 97. Qb2#
>>>>>>>>{Black checkmated} 1-0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is obviously some kind of bug in Junior, possibly induced by lack of time
>>>>>>>to "think".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I do not think that it is a bug.
>>>>>>It is a typical computer mistake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>computers do not understand that the pawn endgame is lost before trading queens
>>>>>>Tablebases cannot help much here because if they can see that white win a pawn
>>>>>>they will not let trade queens but winning the pawn is too deep for them to see
>>>>>>because of typical bad search rules(they considers the line Qg5+ Qxg5 Kxg5 only
>>>>>>for a very short time) and before winning the pawn the position seems to be
>>>>>>better for black because the black pawns are more advanced then the white pawns
>>>>>>and the black king is also closer to the cntre of the board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>
>>>>>Junior's file shows that it looked 18 ply ahead when selecting 71...Qg5+? The
>>>>>pawn on d4 was lost 14 ply later. So which of the very obvious king advances by
>>>>>White did it prune out of the search, and why would that not represent a bug,
>>>>>meaning unintended behavior by the program?
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>Vine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Junior depth does not mean plies.
>>>>depth 18 of Junior means only 9 plies of brute force depth.
>>>>
>>>>There are rare cases when Junior cannot see simple tactics when this is not a
>>>>question of time but this does not seem to be one of thee cases because if you
>>>>give Junior to play at long time control(for example 10 hours/20 moves) then
>>>>Junior can fail low at depth 21.
>>>>
>>>>I did not wait to see how much time it needs to find Kh4 and maybe someone with
>>>>faster hardware can do it.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>Faster hardware is not necessary. On my Celeron 433, Junior 7 takes a disgusting
>>>4 minutes and 15 seconds to both see something is wrong with Qg5+ and change to
>>>moving the king. On this same machine, some other much better times:
>>>
>>>Phalanx XXII: 3 seconds to see the pawn on d4 falling, 25 seconds to move the
>>>king though with no draw score
>>>Pharaon 2.35 (an old beta): 9 seconds to see both that Qg5+ loses and to move
>>>the king with a draw score
>>>Yace 0.99.57: 12 seconds to see that Qg5+ is kind of bad (like -.8 or something)
>>>and move the king (don't recall if it gave a draw score)
>>>Fritz 6: 15 seconds with details like Yace above
>>>A huge host of other Winboard engines: 20-40 seconds to move the king
>>>Some good engines that took longer: Little Goliath 3.5, Nejmet 3.05
>>>
>>>So Junior 7 is not searching this kind of position correctly, even given the
>>>typical weaknesses of programs in evaluating certain endings. And of course I'm
>>>quite aware that 18 ply is not brute force, that's why I specifically asked
>>>which of the obvious king advances was being pruned out of the selective search
>>>-- a legitimate question I think.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Vine
>>
>>A couple of additional times:
>>Rebel Century 3.0: 5 seconds to move the king
>>Chess Tiger 14: Instantly! Maybe you don't need the latest hardware, just the
>>right program.
>
>Tiger's evaluation is not symmetric about pawn endgames.
>It knows that it does not know pawn endgames so it prefers not to let pawn
>endgame in both sides.
>
>I also do not say that you need the latest hardware and having the right search
>rules is enough to find it in less than a second.
>
>A rule that says always to search the pv move for at least 10% of the time and
>to extend it if you get a score for it with smaller number of nodes is enough
>for it.
>
>Uri
I wasn't referring to any of your comments when mentioning the hardware, I was
refering to Slater's dual giga-whatever-hertz monstrosity, the power of which
was wasted in this case by defective software.
Tiger sees a flat draw score of 0.00 by moving the king and instantly sees White
up by more than a pawn when Qg5+ is played, and mate in 19 in just a few more
seconds (on a Celeron, remember). Its search works better than Junior's here,
period. So does Yace's, Crafty's, most top Winboard engines.
I don't say this to attack Junior -- I like this program, but it has defects
like any complex program does.
Vine
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