Author: Slater Wold
Date: 09:44:14 05/09/02
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2002 at 12:09:00, José Carlos wrote:
>On May 09, 2002 at 08:05:27, Vine Smith wrote:
>
>>On May 09, 2002 at 07:15:24, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:46:45, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:17:15, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:04:57, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 03:02:52, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/3Q3k/p2p1q2/P2P4/6K1/8 b - - 0 71
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is from a game I played last nite against Crafty 18.14. I was using Deep
>>>>>>>Junior 7.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am unsure what the other guy was using (HW), although I know it was an SMP
>>>>>>>system. No idea about TBs, or anything like that. I have over 20GB of TBs,
>>>>>>>3/4/5 and a lot of 6's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Here is the entire game:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Crafty 18.14 - Deep Junior 7 [A29]
>>>>>>>(2), 08.05.2002
>>>>>>>[-0.12]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 128MB, jbook.ctg
>>>>>>> 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.0-0 Be6 last book
>>>>>>>move -0.12/15 9 8.d3 (Qc2) 8...f6 2054kN/s -0.05/15 8 9.Be3 Nd4 2268kN/s
>>>>>>>-0.06/16 4 10.Nh4 (Rc1) 10...g5 1924kN/s -0.11/14 6 11.Nf3 c6 2174kN/s
>>>>>>>0.00/14 0 12.Ne4 g4 2152kN/s 0.19/15 6 13.Nxd4 exd4 2016kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>14.Bf4 (Bd2) 14...Nd5 1921kN/s -0.02/16 6 15.Bd2 (Qd2) 15...Rg8 2055kN/s
>>>>>>>0.09/14 8 16.Rc1 Qb6 2188kN/s 0.00/16 0 17.Qa4 (b4) 17...a5 2048kN/s
>>>>>>>0.13/14 6 18.a3 f5 2393kN/s -0.08/15 2 19.Ng5 Bd7 2324kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>20.b4 (Nf7) 20...Bh6 2301kN/s -0.19/13 15 21.f4 gxf3 2222kN/s -0.18/14 0
>>>>>>>22.Nxf3 Be3+ 2349kN/s -0.22/14 8 23.Bxe3 (Kh1) 23...Nxe3 2014kN/s -0.37/12
>>>>>>>3 24.Rf2 f4 2619kN/s -0.33/14 3 25.gxf4 (Rc5) 25...Bh3 2673kN/s -0.81/13 9
>>>>>>> 26.Ne1 Qd8 2779kN/s -0.51/14 13 27.Qb3 (Rc5) 27...Rg6 2880kN/s -0.64/13 17
>>>>>>> 28.Rc5 (f5) 28...a4 2781kN/s -0.67/12 9 29.Qa2 Qf6 2806kN/s -0.66/13 14
>>>>>>>30.Rg5 (b5) 30...Be6 2238kN/s -0.46/15 16 31.Rxg6 Qxg6 2227kN/s -0.59/15 11
>>>>>>> 32.Qd2 (Qb2) 32...Bd5 2270kN/s -0.49/16 24 33.f5 Qg4 2529kN/s -0.27/16 20
>>>>>>>34.b5 0-0-0 2814kN/s -0.21/14 7 35.Qa5 (bxc6) 35...Rg8 2948kN/s -0.62/13 7
>>>>>>>36.bxc6 (Qa8+) 36...Bxc6 2885kN/s -0.15/14 23 37.Qc5 (Qe5) 37...Qg5 2636kN/s
>>>>>>>-0.55/14 7 38.Nf3 Qg7 2690kN/s -0.60/14 1 39.Ne1 Qf6 2500kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>40.Nf3 h5 2564kN/s -0.75/15 0 41.h4 (Kh1) 41...Rg3 2683kN/s -0.47/13 6
>>>>>>>42.Kh2 Rg7 2734kN/s -0.45/14 0 43.Bh3 Ng4+ 2351kN/s -0.20/15 0 44.Bxg4
>>>>>>>hxg4 2413kN/s -0.49/15 4 45.Ng5 Rxg5 2568kN/s -0.14/15 14 46.hxg5 Qxg5
>>>>>>>2699kN/s -0.23/15 8 47.Kg1 g3 2802kN/s -0.28/16 8 48.Rg2 Qe3+ 2526kN/s
>>>>>>>-0.52/16 22 49.Kf1 Kd7 3054kN/s 0.00/17 24 50.Rxg3 (Qc4) 50...Qf4+ 2399kN/s
>>>>>>> -0.67/14 3 51.Rf3 Bxf3 2273kN/s 0.00/15 0 52.exf3 Qxf3+ 2139kN/s 0.00/15
>>>>>>>0 53.Kg1 Qg3+ 2184kN/s -0.37/14 2 54.Kh1 Qd6 2666kN/s -0.11/14 20 55.Qa7
>>>>>>>(Qb5+) 55...Qh6+ 2006kN/s -0.37/14 4 56.Kg2 (Kg1) 56...Qd2+ 2173kN/s
>>>>>>>-0.37/14 3 57.Kg1 Qe3+ 2338kN/s -0.37/15 0 58.Kg2 (Kh1) 58...Qg5+ 2401kN/s
>>>>>>>-0.07/14 9 59.Kh2 Qh4+ 2340kN/s -0.07/14 4 60.Kg2 Qg4+ 2334kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>> 61.Kh2 (Kh1) 61...Qe2+ 2860kN/s 0.00/15 20 62.Kg1 (Kh1) 62...Qd1+ 2315kN/s
>>>>>>>0.06/13 2 63.Kf2 Qc2+ 2867kN/s 0.00/14 0 64.Ke1 (Kg1) 64...Qc1+ 2631kN/s
>>>>>>>0.00/12 4 65.Kf2 Qf4+ 2656kN/s 0.00/13 0 66.Kg2 Ke7 2760kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>67.Qxb7+ Kf6 2193kN/s #1/16 0 68.Qc6+ (Qe4) 68...Kxf5 1880kN/s 0.00/16 8
>>>>>>>69.Qc8+ Kg6 1704kN/s 0.00/17 13 70.Qg8+ Kh5 1559kN/s #1/18 0 71.Qd5+
>>>>>>>(Qh8+) 71...Qg5+ 2119kN/s 0.00/18 2 72.Qxg5+ Kxg5 0kN/s 0.00/3 0 73.Kg3
>>>>>>>Kf5 398kN/s #20/62 0 74.Kf3 Ke5 93kN/s #20/62 0 75.Kg4 Kd5 1135kN/s
>>>>>>>#20/61 0 76.Kf4 Kc5 1792kN/s #20/61 0 77.Ke5 Kc6 1521kN/s #20/62 0
>>>>>>>78.Kxd4 Kd6 #20/1 0 79.Kc4 Kc6 #18/1 0 80.Kb4 Kd5 #17/1 0 81.Kxa4 Kc5
>>>>>>>#16/1 0 82.Ka5 Kc6 #16/1 0 83.d4 Kd5 #14/1 0 84.Kb6 Kxd4 #13/1 0
>>>>>>>85.a4 Kc4 #12/1 0 86.a5 Kd5 #11/1 0 87.a6 Kc4 #10/1 0 88.a7 Kd4 #9/1
>>>>>>>0 89.a8Q Ke3 #9/1 0 90.Qf8 Ke4 #7/1 0 91.Kc6 Kd3 #6/1 0 92.Qf3+ Kd2
>>>>>>>#5/1 0 93.Kd5 Ke1 #4/1 0 94.Qg2 Kd1 #4/1 0 95.Kd4 Kc1 #2/1 0 96.Kc3
>>>>>>>Kb1 #1/1 0 97.Qb2# 1-0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And PGN:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Event "FICS rated blitz game"]
>>>>>>>[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
>>>>>>>[Date "2002.05.08"]
>>>>>>>[Time "00:42:28"]
>>>>>>>[Round "-"]
>>>>>>>[White "tjfritz"]
>>>>>>>[Black "Project"]
>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2450"]
>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2579"]
>>>>>>>[TimeControl "300+5"]
>>>>>>>[Mode "ICS"]
>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be6
>>>>>>>8. d3 f6 9. Be3 Nd4 10. Nh4 g5 11. Nf3 c6 12. Ne4 g4 13. Nxd4 exd4 14. Bf4
>>>>>>>Nd5 15. Bd2 Rg8 16. Rc1 Qb6 17. Qa4 a5 18. a3 f5 19. Ng5 Bd7 20. b4 Bh6
>>>>>>>21. f4 gxf3 22. Nxf3 Be3+ 23. Bxe3 Nxe3 24. Rf2 f4 25. gxf4 Bh3 26. Ne1
>>>>>>>Qd8 27. Qb3 Rg6 28. Rc5 a4 29. Qa2 Qf6 30. Rg5 Be6 31. Rxg6 Qxg6 32. Qd2
>>>>>>>Bd5 33. f5 Qg4 34. b5 O-O-O 35. Qa5 Rg8 36. bxc6 Bxc6 37. Qc5 Qg5 38. Nf3
>>>>>>>Qg7 39. Ne1 Qf6 40. Nf3 h5 41. h4 Rg3 42. Kh2 Rg7 43. Bh3 Ng4+ 44. Bxg4
>>>>>>>hxg4 45. Ng5 Rxg5 46. hxg5 Qxg5 47. Kg1 g3 48. Rg2 Qe3+ 49. Kf1 Kd7 50. Rxg3
>>>>>>>Qf4+ 51. Rf3 Bxf3 52. exf3 Qxf3+ 53. Kg1 Qg3+ 54. Kh1 Qd6 55. Qa7 Qh6+ 56. Kg2
>>>>>>>Qd2+ 57. Kg1 Qe3+ 58. Kg2 Qg5+ 59. Kh2 Qh4+ 60. Kg2 Qg4+ 61. Kh2 Qe2+ 62. Kg1
>>>>>>>Qd1+ 63. Kf2 Qc2+ 64. Ke1 Qc1+ 65. Kf2 Qf4+ 66. Kg2 Ke7 67. Qxb7+ Kf6 68. Qc6+
>>>>>>>Kxf5 69. Qc8+ Kg6 70. Qg8+ Kh5 71. Qd5+ Qg5+ 72. Qxg5+ Kxg5 73. Kg3 Kf5
>>>>>>>74. Kf3 Ke5 75. Kg4 Kd5 76. Kf4 Kc5 77. Ke5 Kc6 78. Kxd4 Kd6 79. Kc4 Kc6
>>>>>>>80. Kb4 Kd5 81. Kxa4 Kc5 82. Ka5 Kc6 83. d4 Kd5 84. Kb6 Kxd4 85. a4 Kc4
>>>>>>>86. a5 Kd5 87. a6 Kc4 88. a7 Kd4 89. a8=Q Ke3 90. Qf8 Ke4 91. Kc6 Kd3 92. Qf3+
>>>>>>>Kd2 93. Kd5 Ke1 94. Qg2 Kd1 95. Kd4 Kc1 96. Kc3 Kb1 97. Qb2#
>>>>>>>{Black checkmated} 1-0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is obviously some kind of bug in Junior, possibly induced by lack of time
>>>>>>to "think".
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not think that it is a bug.
>>>>>It is a typical computer mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>>computers do not understand that the pawn endgame is lost before trading queens
>>>>>Tablebases cannot help much here because if they can see that white win a pawn
>>>>>they will not let trade queens but winning the pawn is too deep for them to see
>>>>>because of typical bad search rules(they considers the line Qg5+ Qxg5 Kxg5 only
>>>>>for a very short time) and before winning the pawn the position seems to be
>>>>>better for black because the black pawns are more advanced then the white pawns
>>>>>and the black king is also closer to the cntre of the board.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>Junior's file shows that it looked 18 ply ahead when selecting 71...Qg5+? The
>>>>pawn on d4 was lost 14 ply later. So which of the very obvious king advances by
>>>>White did it prune out of the search, and why would that not represent a bug,
>>>>meaning unintended behavior by the program?
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Vine
>>>
>>>
>>>Junior depth does not mean plies.
>>>depth 18 of Junior means only 9 plies of brute force depth.
>>>
>>>There are rare cases when Junior cannot see simple tactics when this is not a
>>>question of time but this does not seem to be one of thee cases because if you
>>>give Junior to play at long time control(for example 10 hours/20 moves) then
>>>Junior can fail low at depth 21.
>>>
>>>I did not wait to see how much time it needs to find Kh4 and maybe someone with
>>>faster hardware can do it.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>Faster hardware is not necessary. On my Celeron 433, Junior 7 takes a disgusting
>>4 minutes and 15 seconds to both see something is wrong with Qg5+ and change to
>>moving the king. On this same machine, some other much better times:
>>
>>Phalanx XXII: 3 seconds to see the pawn on d4 falling, 25 seconds to move the
>>king though with no draw score
>>Pharaon 2.35 (an old beta): 9 seconds to see both that Qg5+ loses and to move
>>the king with a draw score
>>Yace 0.99.57: 12 seconds to see that Qg5+ is kind of bad (like -.8 or something)
>>and move the king (don't recall if it gave a draw score)
>>Fritz 6: 15 seconds with details like Yace above
>>A huge host of other Winboard engines: 20-40 seconds to move the king
>>Some good engines that took longer: Little Goliath 3.5, Nejmet 3.05
>
> You're right, the position is very easy for chess programs. This is Averno's
>output without EGTB's:
>
>Averno v0.43c
>(c) 1999-2002 Jose Carlos Martinez Galan
>
>go
>Tiempo esperado: 67108863
>
>Prof Eval Tiempo Nodos PV
>---- ---- ------ --------- ------
>1 0.00 0.00 10 f4g5
>1 0.06 0.00 18 h5g4!
>1 0.06 0.00 18 h5g4
>1 0.06 0.00 21--h5g4
>2 -0.19 0.00 86 h5g4?
>2 -1.12 0.00 137 h5g4 d5d7
>2 -0.86 0.00 170 f4g5!
>2 -0.20 0.00 186 f4g5!
>2 -0.20 0.00 186 f4g5 d5g5
>2 0.00 0.00 279 h5h4!
>2 0.00 0.00 279 h5h4 d5a5
>2 0.00 0.00 350--h5h4 d5a5
>3 0.00 0.00 762 h5h4 d5f3 f4e5
>3 0.00 0.00 979--h5h4 d5f3 f4e5
>4 -0.20 0.00 1994 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5
>4 -0.20 0.00 2980--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5
>5 0.00 0.00 5102 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5
>5 0.00 0.00 7891--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5
>6 0.00 0.00 14461 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1
>6 0.00 0.00 20294--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1
>7 0.00 0.00 40068 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6
>7 0.00 0.00 71147--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6
>8 0.00 0.00 130826 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>8 0.00 0.00 212441--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>9 0.00 0.00 412463 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5
>9 0.00 1.00 714498--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5
>10 0.00 2.00 1410136 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5 h2g2
>10 0.00 4.00 2307904--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5 h2g2
>11 0.00 8.00 4438241 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5 h2g2 h5g4
>11 0.00 14.00 7337964--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
> h6h5 h2g2 h5g4
>
> As you can see, at ply 2 Qg5+ is refused, probably because of this line: Qg5+
>Qxg5+ Kxg5 Kg3 (though it only prints two moves in the PV). I don't know the
>name in english for this position of the kings (Kg3 vs Kg5) but I think every
>program knows this is bad for the side to move.
>
> José C.
Well, obviously not every program. :D
>>So Junior 7 is not searching this kind of position correctly, even given the
>>typical weaknesses of programs in evaluating certain endings. And of course I'm
>>quite aware that 18 ply is not brute force, that's why I specifically asked
>>which of the obvious king advances was being pruned out of the selective search
>>-- a legitimate question I think.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Vine
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