Author: José Carlos
Date: 11:35:30 05/09/02
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2002 at 14:02:59, Uri Blass wrote:
>On May 09, 2002 at 13:47:18, José Carlos wrote:
>
>>On May 09, 2002 at 13:42:20, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On May 09, 2002 at 13:07:47, José Carlos wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 12:43:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 12:09:00, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 08:05:27, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 07:15:24, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:46:45, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:17:15, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 06:04:57, Vine Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On May 09, 2002 at 03:02:52, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/3Q3k/p2p1q2/P2P4/6K1/8 b - - 0 71
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>This is from a game I played last nite against Crafty 18.14. I was using Deep
>>>>>>>>>>>>Junior 7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I am unsure what the other guy was using (HW), although I know it was an SMP
>>>>>>>>>>>>system. No idea about TBs, or anything like that. I have over 20GB of TBs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>3/4/5 and a lot of 6's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is the entire game:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Crafty 18.14 - Deep Junior 7 [A29]
>>>>>>>>>>>>(2), 08.05.2002
>>>>>>>>>>>>[-0.12]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 128MB, jbook.ctg
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.0-0 Be6 last book
>>>>>>>>>>>>move -0.12/15 9 8.d3 (Qc2) 8...f6 2054kN/s -0.05/15 8 9.Be3 Nd4 2268kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>-0.06/16 4 10.Nh4 (Rc1) 10...g5 1924kN/s -0.11/14 6 11.Nf3 c6 2174kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>0.00/14 0 12.Ne4 g4 2152kN/s 0.19/15 6 13.Nxd4 exd4 2016kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>14.Bf4 (Bd2) 14...Nd5 1921kN/s -0.02/16 6 15.Bd2 (Qd2) 15...Rg8 2055kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>0.09/14 8 16.Rc1 Qb6 2188kN/s 0.00/16 0 17.Qa4 (b4) 17...a5 2048kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>0.13/14 6 18.a3 f5 2393kN/s -0.08/15 2 19.Ng5 Bd7 2324kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>20.b4 (Nf7) 20...Bh6 2301kN/s -0.19/13 15 21.f4 gxf3 2222kN/s -0.18/14 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>22.Nxf3 Be3+ 2349kN/s -0.22/14 8 23.Bxe3 (Kh1) 23...Nxe3 2014kN/s -0.37/12
>>>>>>>>>>>>3 24.Rf2 f4 2619kN/s -0.33/14 3 25.gxf4 (Rc5) 25...Bh3 2673kN/s -0.81/13 9
>>>>>>>>>>>> 26.Ne1 Qd8 2779kN/s -0.51/14 13 27.Qb3 (Rc5) 27...Rg6 2880kN/s -0.64/13 17
>>>>>>>>>>>> 28.Rc5 (f5) 28...a4 2781kN/s -0.67/12 9 29.Qa2 Qf6 2806kN/s -0.66/13 14
>>>>>>>>>>>>30.Rg5 (b5) 30...Be6 2238kN/s -0.46/15 16 31.Rxg6 Qxg6 2227kN/s -0.59/15 11
>>>>>>>>>>>> 32.Qd2 (Qb2) 32...Bd5 2270kN/s -0.49/16 24 33.f5 Qg4 2529kN/s -0.27/16 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>34.b5 0-0-0 2814kN/s -0.21/14 7 35.Qa5 (bxc6) 35...Rg8 2948kN/s -0.62/13 7
>>>>>>>>>>>>36.bxc6 (Qa8+) 36...Bxc6 2885kN/s -0.15/14 23 37.Qc5 (Qe5) 37...Qg5 2636kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>-0.55/14 7 38.Nf3 Qg7 2690kN/s -0.60/14 1 39.Ne1 Qf6 2500kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>40.Nf3 h5 2564kN/s -0.75/15 0 41.h4 (Kh1) 41...Rg3 2683kN/s -0.47/13 6
>>>>>>>>>>>>42.Kh2 Rg7 2734kN/s -0.45/14 0 43.Bh3 Ng4+ 2351kN/s -0.20/15 0 44.Bxg4
>>>>>>>>>>>>hxg4 2413kN/s -0.49/15 4 45.Ng5 Rxg5 2568kN/s -0.14/15 14 46.hxg5 Qxg5
>>>>>>>>>>>>2699kN/s -0.23/15 8 47.Kg1 g3 2802kN/s -0.28/16 8 48.Rg2 Qe3+ 2526kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>-0.52/16 22 49.Kf1 Kd7 3054kN/s 0.00/17 24 50.Rxg3 (Qc4) 50...Qf4+ 2399kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0.67/14 3 51.Rf3 Bxf3 2273kN/s 0.00/15 0 52.exf3 Qxf3+ 2139kN/s 0.00/15
>>>>>>>>>>>>0 53.Kg1 Qg3+ 2184kN/s -0.37/14 2 54.Kh1 Qd6 2666kN/s -0.11/14 20 55.Qa7
>>>>>>>>>>>>(Qb5+) 55...Qh6+ 2006kN/s -0.37/14 4 56.Kg2 (Kg1) 56...Qd2+ 2173kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>-0.37/14 3 57.Kg1 Qe3+ 2338kN/s -0.37/15 0 58.Kg2 (Kh1) 58...Qg5+ 2401kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>-0.07/14 9 59.Kh2 Qh4+ 2340kN/s -0.07/14 4 60.Kg2 Qg4+ 2334kN/s 0.00/16 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> 61.Kh2 (Kh1) 61...Qe2+ 2860kN/s 0.00/15 20 62.Kg1 (Kh1) 62...Qd1+ 2315kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>0.06/13 2 63.Kf2 Qc2+ 2867kN/s 0.00/14 0 64.Ke1 (Kg1) 64...Qc1+ 2631kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>0.00/12 4 65.Kf2 Qf4+ 2656kN/s 0.00/13 0 66.Kg2 Ke7 2760kN/s 0.00/15 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>67.Qxb7+ Kf6 2193kN/s #1/16 0 68.Qc6+ (Qe4) 68...Kxf5 1880kN/s 0.00/16 8
>>>>>>>>>>>>69.Qc8+ Kg6 1704kN/s 0.00/17 13 70.Qg8+ Kh5 1559kN/s #1/18 0 71.Qd5+
>>>>>>>>>>>>(Qh8+) 71...Qg5+ 2119kN/s 0.00/18 2 72.Qxg5+ Kxg5 0kN/s 0.00/3 0 73.Kg3
>>>>>>>>>>>>Kf5 398kN/s #20/62 0 74.Kf3 Ke5 93kN/s #20/62 0 75.Kg4 Kd5 1135kN/s
>>>>>>>>>>>>#20/61 0 76.Kf4 Kc5 1792kN/s #20/61 0 77.Ke5 Kc6 1521kN/s #20/62 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>78.Kxd4 Kd6 #20/1 0 79.Kc4 Kc6 #18/1 0 80.Kb4 Kd5 #17/1 0 81.Kxa4 Kc5
>>>>>>>>>>>>#16/1 0 82.Ka5 Kc6 #16/1 0 83.d4 Kd5 #14/1 0 84.Kb6 Kxd4 #13/1 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>85.a4 Kc4 #12/1 0 86.a5 Kd5 #11/1 0 87.a6 Kc4 #10/1 0 88.a7 Kd4 #9/1
>>>>>>>>>>>>0 89.a8Q Ke3 #9/1 0 90.Qf8 Ke4 #7/1 0 91.Kc6 Kd3 #6/1 0 92.Qf3+ Kd2
>>>>>>>>>>>>#5/1 0 93.Kd5 Ke1 #4/1 0 94.Qg2 Kd1 #4/1 0 95.Kd4 Kc1 #2/1 0 96.Kc3
>>>>>>>>>>>>Kb1 #1/1 0 97.Qb2# 1-0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>And PGN:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "FICS rated blitz game"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2002.05.08"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Time "00:42:28"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "-"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "tjfritz"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "Project"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2450"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2579"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "300+5"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Mode "ICS"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O Be6
>>>>>>>>>>>>8. d3 f6 9. Be3 Nd4 10. Nh4 g5 11. Nf3 c6 12. Ne4 g4 13. Nxd4 exd4 14. Bf4
>>>>>>>>>>>>Nd5 15. Bd2 Rg8 16. Rc1 Qb6 17. Qa4 a5 18. a3 f5 19. Ng5 Bd7 20. b4 Bh6
>>>>>>>>>>>>21. f4 gxf3 22. Nxf3 Be3+ 23. Bxe3 Nxe3 24. Rf2 f4 25. gxf4 Bh3 26. Ne1
>>>>>>>>>>>>Qd8 27. Qb3 Rg6 28. Rc5 a4 29. Qa2 Qf6 30. Rg5 Be6 31. Rxg6 Qxg6 32. Qd2
>>>>>>>>>>>>Bd5 33. f5 Qg4 34. b5 O-O-O 35. Qa5 Rg8 36. bxc6 Bxc6 37. Qc5 Qg5 38. Nf3
>>>>>>>>>>>>Qg7 39. Ne1 Qf6 40. Nf3 h5 41. h4 Rg3 42. Kh2 Rg7 43. Bh3 Ng4+ 44. Bxg4
>>>>>>>>>>>>hxg4 45. Ng5 Rxg5 46. hxg5 Qxg5 47. Kg1 g3 48. Rg2 Qe3+ 49. Kf1 Kd7 50. Rxg3
>>>>>>>>>>>>Qf4+ 51. Rf3 Bxf3 52. exf3 Qxf3+ 53. Kg1 Qg3+ 54. Kh1 Qd6 55. Qa7 Qh6+ 56. Kg2
>>>>>>>>>>>>Qd2+ 57. Kg1 Qe3+ 58. Kg2 Qg5+ 59. Kh2 Qh4+ 60. Kg2 Qg4+ 61. Kh2 Qe2+ 62. Kg1
>>>>>>>>>>>>Qd1+ 63. Kf2 Qc2+ 64. Ke1 Qc1+ 65. Kf2 Qf4+ 66. Kg2 Ke7 67. Qxb7+ Kf6 68. Qc6+
>>>>>>>>>>>>Kxf5 69. Qc8+ Kg6 70. Qg8+ Kh5 71. Qd5+ Qg5+ 72. Qxg5+ Kxg5 73. Kg3 Kf5
>>>>>>>>>>>>74. Kf3 Ke5 75. Kg4 Kd5 76. Kf4 Kc5 77. Ke5 Kc6 78. Kxd4 Kd6 79. Kc4 Kc6
>>>>>>>>>>>>80. Kb4 Kd5 81. Kxa4 Kc5 82. Ka5 Kc6 83. d4 Kd5 84. Kb6 Kxd4 85. a4 Kc4
>>>>>>>>>>>>86. a5 Kd5 87. a6 Kc4 88. a7 Kd4 89. a8=Q Ke3 90. Qf8 Ke4 91. Kc6 Kd3 92. Qf3+
>>>>>>>>>>>>Kd2 93. Kd5 Ke1 94. Qg2 Kd1 95. Kd4 Kc1 96. Kc3 Kb1 97. Qb2#
>>>>>>>>>>>>{Black checkmated} 1-0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>This is obviously some kind of bug in Junior, possibly induced by lack of time
>>>>>>>>>>>to "think".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I do not think that it is a bug.
>>>>>>>>>>It is a typical computer mistake.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>computers do not understand that the pawn endgame is lost before trading queens
>>>>>>>>>>Tablebases cannot help much here because if they can see that white win a pawn
>>>>>>>>>>they will not let trade queens but winning the pawn is too deep for them to see
>>>>>>>>>>because of typical bad search rules(they considers the line Qg5+ Qxg5 Kxg5 only
>>>>>>>>>>for a very short time) and before winning the pawn the position seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>better for black because the black pawns are more advanced then the white pawns
>>>>>>>>>>and the black king is also closer to the cntre of the board.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Junior's file shows that it looked 18 ply ahead when selecting 71...Qg5+? The
>>>>>>>>>pawn on d4 was lost 14 ply later. So which of the very obvious king advances by
>>>>>>>>>White did it prune out of the search, and why would that not represent a bug,
>>>>>>>>>meaning unintended behavior by the program?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>>>Vine
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Junior depth does not mean plies.
>>>>>>>>depth 18 of Junior means only 9 plies of brute force depth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>There are rare cases when Junior cannot see simple tactics when this is not a
>>>>>>>>question of time but this does not seem to be one of thee cases because if you
>>>>>>>>give Junior to play at long time control(for example 10 hours/20 moves) then
>>>>>>>>Junior can fail low at depth 21.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I did not wait to see how much time it needs to find Kh4 and maybe someone with
>>>>>>>>faster hardware can do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Faster hardware is not necessary. On my Celeron 433, Junior 7 takes a disgusting
>>>>>>>4 minutes and 15 seconds to both see something is wrong with Qg5+ and change to
>>>>>>>moving the king. On this same machine, some other much better times:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Phalanx XXII: 3 seconds to see the pawn on d4 falling, 25 seconds to move the
>>>>>>>king though with no draw score
>>>>>>>Pharaon 2.35 (an old beta): 9 seconds to see both that Qg5+ loses and to move
>>>>>>>the king with a draw score
>>>>>>>Yace 0.99.57: 12 seconds to see that Qg5+ is kind of bad (like -.8 or something)
>>>>>>>and move the king (don't recall if it gave a draw score)
>>>>>>>Fritz 6: 15 seconds with details like Yace above
>>>>>>>A huge host of other Winboard engines: 20-40 seconds to move the king
>>>>>>>Some good engines that took longer: Little Goliath 3.5, Nejmet 3.05
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're right, the position is very easy for chess programs. This is Averno's
>>>>>>output without EGTB's:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Averno v0.43c
>>>>>>(c) 1999-2002 Jose Carlos Martinez Galan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>go
>>>>>>Tiempo esperado: 67108863
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Prof Eval Tiempo Nodos PV
>>>>>>---- ---- ------ --------- ------
>>>>>>1 0.00 0.00 10 f4g5
>>>>>>1 0.06 0.00 18 h5g4!
>>>>>>1 0.06 0.00 18 h5g4
>>>>>>1 0.06 0.00 21--h5g4
>>>>>>2 -0.19 0.00 86 h5g4?
>>>>>>2 -1.12 0.00 137 h5g4 d5d7
>>>>>>2 -0.86 0.00 170 f4g5!
>>>>>>2 -0.20 0.00 186 f4g5!
>>>>>>2 -0.20 0.00 186 f4g5 d5g5
>>>>>>2 0.00 0.00 279 h5h4!
>>>>>>2 0.00 0.00 279 h5h4 d5a5
>>>>>>2 0.00 0.00 350--h5h4 d5a5
>>>>>>3 0.00 0.00 762 h5h4 d5f3 f4e5
>>>>>>3 0.00 0.00 979--h5h4 d5f3 f4e5
>>>>>>4 -0.20 0.00 1994 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5
>>>>>>4 -0.20 0.00 2980--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5
>>>>>>5 0.00 0.00 5102 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5
>>>>>>5 0.00 0.00 7891--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5
>>>>>>6 0.00 0.00 14461 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1
>>>>>>6 0.00 0.00 20294--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1
>>>>>>7 0.00 0.00 40068 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6
>>>>>>7 0.00 0.00 71147--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6
>>>>>>8 0.00 0.00 130826 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>>8 0.00 0.00 212441--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>>9 0.00 0.00 412463 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5
>>>>>>9 0.00 1.00 714498--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5
>>>>>>10 0.00 2.00 1410136 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5 h2g2
>>>>>>10 0.00 4.00 2307904--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5 h2g2
>>>>>>11 0.00 8.00 4438241 h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5 h2g2 h5g4
>>>>>>11 0.00 14.00 7337964--h5h4 d5d8 f4g5 d8g5 h4g5 g2g1 g5h6 g1h2
>>>>>> h6h5 h2g2 h5g4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you can see, at ply 2 Qg5+ is refused, probably because of this line: Qg5+
>>>>>>Qxg5+ Kxg5 Kg3 (though it only prints two moves in the PV). I don't know the
>>>>>>name in english for this position of the kings (Kg3 vs Kg5) but I think every
>>>>>>program knows this is bad for the side to move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> José C.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I think that the most important knowledge for amateurs is search knowledge and
>>>>>the proof is that a lot of program without that knowledge are clearly better
>>>>>than Averno.
>>>>
>>>> Names please?
>>>>
>>>> José C.
>>>
>>>Junior has not the relevant knowledge ans the same for crafty or yace that find
>>>that Qxg5 is bad only thanks to search.
>>
>> Crafty and YACE don't know about opposition? Hard to believe.
>> Anyway, your "proof" is not very good when you say "a lot" and can only name
>>two, without knowing for sure if the knowledge is there or not.
>>
>>>I did not check more programs but it seems that almost nothing can see based on
>>>2 plies search that Qg5+ is better for white.
>>
>> Of course it can, with the right knowledge.
>>
>> José C.
>
>I talked about what programs that are available today can do and not about the
>future programs and the programs that I checked are good programs.
>
>Uri
You said:
"I think that the most important knowledge for amateurs is search knowledge and
the proof is that a lot of program without that knowledge are clearly better
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
than Averno."
But then you didn't mention "a lot" and you're not sure they don't know about
opposition, so the "proof" is not valid.
And you also said:
"I did not check more programs but it seems that almost nothing can see based on
2 plies search that Qg5+ is better for white."
Something can be seen, and very easily, BTW. In two plies (with the check
extensions), it can be seen that Qg5+ Qxg5+ Kxg5 Kg3! is better for white
because of opposition.
The fact that Junior can't see it doesn't mean that no one else can see it.
It's just Junior that doesn't have the knowledge. Of course, Junior is a very
good program in many other areas, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have defects.
José C.
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