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Subject: Re: can GM's learn from programs

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 15:35:57 05/21/02

Go up one level in this thread


On May 21, 2002 at 18:14:44, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On May 21, 2002 at 17:28:45, Peter McKenzie wrote:
>
>>On May 21, 2002 at 11:07:46, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On May 21, 2002 at 10:13:29, K. Burcham wrote:
>>>
>>>The answer is as simple as clear.
>>>
>>>They can use programs to analyze games with from other GMs
>>>and themselves. They can use it to analyze variations from their
>>>openings preparation with.
>>>
>>>But they can't learn from it.
>>>
>>>Whatever commercial propaganda says about chessproducts, they
>>>are weaker in all respects than a GM, except one: they always
>>>play a move at the same level.
>>>
>>>GM is everywhere better than a program, but doesn't have a
>>>level that is always above the constant line the program has.
>>
>>You overlook *at least* one area that the program is better in: any endgame that
>>is in tablebases!  Even GMs can have trouble with simple rook endgames, and they
>>are quite terrible at Queen endgames.
>
>No i don't overlook it. The question is whether they can learn from
>it. My answer is: NO the thing doesn't explain why a move is good.
>
>To explain it in children language:
>
>If EGTB says in position X: best move is Rh4 mate in 40, it doesn't
>explain why in the general casus this move is good.

Yace output:

white ( 1): input: setboard 8/1P6/8/5k2/2K4p/7r/1r4p1/6R1 b - - bm Rg3;
Stored 8 learned positions into hash table
black ( 1): input: go
usetime = 19.93, mintime = 9.97 maxtime = 49.83 tl 598.00 ml 40
         2   0.006   6.82  1t  1...Rxb7 2.Rxg2 {580}
        18   0.013   7.22  1t  1...Rg3 {580}
        44   0.020   7.22  1.  1...Rg3 {580}
       110   0.026   8.88  2++ 1...Rg3 2.Kd5 Rxb7 {660}
       127   0.033   8.88  2t  1...Rg3 2.Kd5 {580}
       364   0.040   8.88  2.  1...Rg3 2.Kd5 {580}
       467   0.046   8.88  3t  1...Rg3 2.Kd5 Rxb7 {660}
      1052   0.053   8.88  3.  1...Rg3 2.Kd5 Rxb7 {660}
      1950   0.062   9.03  4t  1...Rg3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 {660}
      3323   0.069   9.03  4.  1...Rg3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 {660}
      6006   0.079   9.30  5t  1...Rg3 2.Kd5 h3 3.b8=Q Rxb8H {660}
     11489   0.129   9.31  5t+ 1...Rhb3 2.Rc1 Rxb7 3.Rg1
     12349   0.133   9.32  5t  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 Rd2+ 4.Kc5H {660}
     13889   0.141   9.32  5.  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 Rd2+ 4.Kc5 {660}
     15950   0.156   9.34  6t  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd4 h3 4.Ke3 {660}
     27482   0.189   9.34  6.  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd4 h3 4.Ke3 {660}
     31961   0.202   9.74  7++ 1...Rhb3 2.Kc5 h3 3.Rb1
     34008   0.208  10.74  7++ 1...Rhb3 2.Ra1 h3 3.Ra2 g1=Q 4.b8=B {1231}
     74580   0.310  11.47  7t  1...Rhb3 2.Kd5 Rc2 3.Kd6 h3 4.Re1 Rd2+ 5.Kc6
                               {580}
     84979   0.387  11.47  7.  1...Rhb3 2.Kd5 Rc2 3.Kd6 h3 4.Re1 Rd2+ 5.Kc6
                               {580}
    103979   0.568  11.87  8++ 1...Rhb3 2.Kd5 Rc2 3.Kd6 h3 4.Rf1+ gxf1=Q 5.Ke7
    129506   0.642  12.86  8t  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd4 h3H 4.Kc5H {HT}
    155819   0.899  12.86  8.  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd4 h3 4.Kc5
    202159   1.096  13.26  9++ 1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Ra1 h3 4.Ra6 g1=Q 5.Kd5
                               {1581}
    220634   1.251  13.26  9t  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5H Rc2H 4.Kd6H Rb1H
                               5.Rxb1H g1=QH 6.Rxg1H {80}
    340246   2.298  13.26  9.  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 Rc2 4.Kd6 Rb1 5.Rxb1
                               g1=Q 6.Rxg1 {80}
    510800   2.960  13.66 10++ 1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kd5 Rc2 4.Kd6 h3 5.Kd5
                               h2 6.Kd4
    778614   3.796  14.66 10++ 1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 3.Kc3 h3 4.Rd1 h2 5.Rd5+
                               Kg4 6.Rd4+ Kf3 7.Rd3+ Kf2 8.Rd1 {660}
    866853   4.524  14.66 10t  1...Rhb3 2.b8=Q Rxb8 {HT}
    984439   5.029  14.67 10t+ 1...Rc3+ 2.Kd4 Rxb7 3.Ra1 g1=Q+ 4.Kd5
   1045305   5.219  22.09 10++ 1...Rc3+ 2.Kd4 Rxb7 3.Rb1 Rxb1 4.Kd5
   1878031   8.048  Mat37 10t  1...Rc3+ 2.Kxc3 Rxb7 3.Rd1 g1=Q 4.Rd8 Qd4+
                               5.Kxd4 {EGTB} {80}
   1942210   8.175  Mat37 10.  1...Rc3+ 2.Kxc3 Rxb7 3.Rd1 g1=Q 4.Rd8 Qd4+
                               5.Kxd4 {EGTB} {80}
   4590685  14.204  Mat29 11t  1...Rc3+ 2.Kxc3 Rxb7 3.Re1 g1=Q 4.Re8 Qe1+
                               5.Rxe1 {EGTB} {80}
   5469364  17.411  Mat29 11.  1...Rc3+ 2.Kxc3 Rxb7 3.Re1 g1=Q 4.Re8 Qe1+
                               5.Rxe1 {EGTB} {80}
   5469364  17.420  Mat29 11f. 1...Rc3+ 2.Kxc3 Rxb7 3.Re1 g1=Q 4.Re8 Qe1+
                               5.Rxe1 {EGTB} 5...h3! 6.Rf1+ Kg4! 7.Rg1+! Kh4!
                               8.Rd1! Rf7! 9.Rh1 Rh7! 10.Kd3 Kg3! 11.Rg1+!
                               Kf2! 12.Rh1! h2! 13.Kd4 Kg2! 14.Re1 h1=Q!
                               15.Rxh1! Rxh1! 16.Ke4 Rh5 17.Kf4! Kf2! 18.Kg4
                               Re5! 19.Kf4! Re8 20.Kg4 Rf8! 21.Kg5! Kf3
                               22.Kg6! Rf4 23.Kg7 Kg3 24.Kh7 Rg4! 25.Kh8 Kh4!
                               26.Kh7 Kh5! 27.Kh8 Kg6! 28.Kg8 Rf4! 29.Kh8
                               Rf8#! {500}
5469364 Nodes, 7.23% Leavenodes, 313970 Nodes/sec
2232025 eval, 96.19% score, 18168369 genmoves, 1.89% captures le 210/818
ext: pawn 7862, rcp 3066, chk 177837, repchk 45506, null 3523, prune 57321
htable: 3384264 store, 0 rejected, 5400196 probe, 52.9% f/p, 84.3% f/s
entries 7999998 age 1 renew 0
egtb probes 2892, found 2892 max_depth 31
black ( 1): Rc3+



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