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Subject: Re: Position to ponder

Author: Vine Smith

Date: 06:57:14 05/24/02

Go up one level in this thread


On May 24, 2002 at 07:47:38, pavel wrote:

>
>Any other programs dumb enough to think this is a win?
>(note: no tb)
>(position from an ongoing game)
>
>
>[D]7k/4K1p1/6Pp/7P/4B3/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Fritz 7:
>
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 17/19   00:00:00  178kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 18/21   00:00:00  246kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 19/23   00:00:00  275kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 20/23   00:00:00  369kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.06)   Depth: 21/25   00:00:01  637kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Bf5 Kh8
>  +-  (4.06)   Depth: 22/25   00:00:01  831kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Be6+ Kh8
>  +-  (4.06)   Depth: 23/29   00:00:01  1027kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Be6+ Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 24/29   00:00:02  1257kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Be6+ Kh8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 25/31   00:00:02  1524kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 26/33   00:00:03  1847kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 27/33   00:00:03  2237kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 28/35   00:00:04  2721kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 29/37   00:00:05  3283kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 30/37   00:00:06  4038kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 31/39   00:00:07  4897kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 32/41   00:00:10  6556kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 33/41   00:00:14  8845kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Bd7 Kg8 81.Ke8 Kh8 82.Bc6 Kg8
>  +-  (4.19)   Depth: 34/43   00:00:21  11785kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Ke6 Kg8 81.Bd5 Kf8 82.Be4 Ke8
>  +-  (4.06)   Depth: 35/43   00:00:39  23454kN
>76.Bd3 Kg8 77.Bc4+ Kh8 78.Bb5 Kg8 79.Bc6 Kh8 80.Ke6 Kg8 81.Bd5 Kf8 82.Be4 Ke8
>  +-  (4.13)   Depth: 36/43   00:00:46  28333kN
>
>(Mahamood, home 24.05.2002)

This kind of position, with no penetration points for the stronger side, and no
progress possible, is well known to deceive programs. There have been many
examples posted lately. At this point, the only thing that would be of interest
regarding this problem is a proposed solution.
However, it is not so much a matter of identifying the position as drawn now,
when it is too late, as seeing this as drawn before entering the position
(assuming there was another better try earlier). Once a program has wandered
into this type of position, it really doesn't matter if the evaluation is +0.10
or +10, the only concern is what alternatives it might have discarded before
because their score was lower.

Regards,
Vine Smith



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