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Subject: Re: Disadvantages of failsoft ?

Author: Ulrich Tuerke

Date: 15:56:41 05/25/02

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On May 25, 2002 at 15:10:21, José Carlos wrote:

>On May 25, 2002 at 07:29:30, Ulrich Tuerke wrote:
>
>>On May 24, 2002 at 19:41:52, José Carlos wrote:
>>
>>>On May 24, 2002 at 18:14:57, J. Wesley Cleveland wrote:
>>>
>>>>   I was looking at the source of crafty and saw that on a fail low, the value
>>>>returned is alpha, rather than Max of all the values from the level below. Is
>>>>there some disadvantage in returning the real upper bound? I think it causes
>>>>some problems in Crafty making it much slower resolving fail-highs and fail-lows
>>>>at the root as these branches all need to be re-searched.
>>>
>>>  I use fail soft because I think (not tested) that it generates smaller trees
>>>generally.
>>>  The drawback is that what you call "real upper bound" is no always so. Null
>>>move and hashing make the search return "not totally correct bounds" some times.
>>
>>What do you mean by "not totally correct bound" ?
>>I don't care for truth or correctness in my chess program; the aim is just to
>>find a good move. In case my fail high verification search is failing low, I
>>just stick to the alpha of the verification search and go on searching the
>>remaining moves. I think, that's not really a problem.
>
>  No it isn't if you take care of it. But what I meant with "not totally correct
>bound" is that, sometimes, the search says "this move is better than 0.54" and,
>if you research with an open window you find that the move is worth 0.51.

Yes, I guessed so.

>I was
>trying to answer the original question saying that the "possible problems" fail
>soft can have come from this unexpected behaviour.

I think that this "problem" is due to alpha-beta dependencies of the search. The
verification search comes with a shifted aspiration window and may lead to a
different result.
I do not think that choosing "fail soft" can cure this because these
dependencies are not related to this choice. IMHO, issues like null-move,
evaluation window techniques, razoring and so on are the source of these search
anomalies.
I am convinced if your search has these dependencies then you will observe in
both schemes cases where a verification search does not confirm the result of
the preceeding search.

c/u
Uli

>
>  Regards,
>
>  José C.



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