Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 14:45:48 06/03/02
Go up one level in this thread
On June 02, 2002 at 22:37:35, pavel wrote: >On June 02, 2002 at 17:49:29, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>On June 02, 2002 at 17:34:10, Robert Henry Durrett wrote: >> >>>At http://kramnik.homestead.com/Fujitsu.html, Kramnik is quoted as saying: >>> >>>"It is much more difficult to prepare against a computer than against a human >>>opponent. When I play GMs I prepare the openings which belong to my repertoire >>>and which I consider to be good. Against a computer the same method is not so >>>convenient partly due to the fact that computer is allowed to check huge opening >>>databases during the game that may include specific preparation against my >>>favorite variations. It is also important to understand that even if my analysis >>>may be quite good I can't simply remember all of them so it looks dangerous to >>>enter into a theoretical opening battle." >>> >>>This raises the question: Will DF have real-time access to considerably MORE >>>than an opening book during the play of the match games? Specifically, will DF >>>be able to study a database such as Megabase 2002 **during** these games? >>> >>>If it is true, then one might wonder what the outcome of the match would prove. >>>Normal DF programs do not have such access, nor do they [presumably] incorporate >>>software to peruse and evaluate database games. Although questions of morality >>>are surely dead end and pointless, it would seem important that the match >>>realistically represent future human/computer matches. If DF wins, one might >>>wonder whether or not it might have won with a normal opening book and nothing >>>else. >>> >>>Normally, when Kramnik, or anybody else, plays against a commercial version of >>>any chess engine, he is playing against an opening book which is NOT optimized >>>for play against any one human. >>> >>>However, DF being given an “anti-Kramnik” opening book should not be deemed >>>unreasonable because that is no different from what happens in human-human >>>matches. For example, when Kasparov prepared for his ill-fated match against >>>Kramnik, Kasparov prepared and memorized his own “secret” anti-Kramnik opening >>>book. This sort of thing is normal in all human-human matches. DF would be >>>unfairly handicapped if DF were to be denied the use of it’s own "secret" >>>anti-Kramnik opening book. >>> >>>As to who prepares DF’s anti-Kramnik opening book . . . Well, that too is not >>>much different from what is done in preparation for high level human-human >>>matches. The players typically have a team of GMs working on this long before >>>the match. >>> >>>So, that leaves the issue of appropriateness and wisdom of letting DF use a >>>Megabase database during the game. >>> >>>After all, this is not supposed to be an “Advanced Chess” match. Is it? >>> >>>Bob D. >> >>Of course it is, but only for the machine's side! ;-) >> >>That's why I wanted to inspire a change in traditional computerchess. >> >>Rolf Tueschen > > >Few things I would like to note: > > Though theoritically everything about chess that human understands can be >programmed in to computers, Computer's way of "thinking" and human's way of >"thinking" is not the same. > >IMO if the intention is to make computers adapt human's kind of play, in order >to make it look 'fair'; then maybe we should also program computers to "snort" >while its opponent makes mistakes. Computers should also have an option to go to >the restroom during the game, computers should not be allowed to think more than >5-6 positions per mins, like humans. They should have to use metal hands >attached to their monitor so that they can move by themselves. They should also >be able to cover their monitors with 2 hands when they make serious blunders >(ie,kasparov). You should also put a glass of water in front of Fritz, as you >would put in front of Kramnik.They should also be able to register under FIDE, >and be eligible to have ratings and GM norms. > >The point is you cannot compare humans with computers. Though they play the same >game, they play it differantly. > >Besides, "Everything is fair in love and war" > >cheers, >pavs ;) Hey, Pavel, thanks for your contribution. I've understood and agree with you for almost all what you wrote. Let me please try it one more time to explain where we differ. IMO the correct statement that we cannot compare humans with computers nevertheless isn't supportant the following logic. If we are different in computerchess we can do whatever we want resp. what is in our tradition. For example we have the right to add certain tricks or data from human chess, what a computer program with the actual strength is unable to produce on its own. Take for example a special opening line, where all comps in 2002 would go wrong, it schould be a matter of honour to either leave the line totally out of the book or to let the machine play what it wants. Now people say, but then Rolf, we can't make a computer program at all, because all what we implement is "man-made". My answer. This is not a fair argument. Because I do not want to eliminate all technical or programming tricks or the implements automatically taken from other collegues. The only thing I want to exclude is the rather primitive copying and pasting of complete results from human chess. If you are clever enough to implement a tool that could find the same line without knowing the result then this would be fine with me. It would be fair. You know well, Pavel, that chessplayers have not the right to use the help of a computer during play. With your logic from above humans should be allowed to use a computer during play. But I doubt you would support this. Because this is no longer human chess. It has a totally different name, as we know. For me, excuse me, this single point is so simple that I have difficulties to understand why people in computerchess can't understand. Rolf Tueschen
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