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Subject: Re: Speedups for BitBoard programs on 64-bit machines

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 10:24:22 06/05/02

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On June 04, 2002 at 20:31:41, Robert Hyatt wrote:

No one can buy such a 'common' alpha that gets 1 million nodes
a second despite what you write. Only Tim who worked with DEC alpha
in past times had one. So i don't see that as 'common'.

The production alpha's all are benchmarked at specint and hell slower
than IA32 processors are.

>On June 04, 2002 at 18:01:03, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>
>>On June 04, 2002 at 17:52:47, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>
>>>On June 04, 2002 at 16:28:39, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 04, 2002 at 16:18:55, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Because you are using a processor that is clocked at twice the clock
>>>>>frequency?  Why compare a 1ghz processor to a (nearly) 2ghz processor
>>>>>and conclude anything about efficiency there?  Is there anything that
>>>>>suggests that the alpha is simply more "efficient"?  To justify that
>>>>>clock frequency disparity?
>>>>>
>>>>>A machine twice as fast (clock freq) _should_ perform just as well as
>>>>>a 64 bit machine at 1/2 the frequency...  Less would suggest that the
>>>>>32 bit machine simply sucks badly.
>>>>
>>>>I don't agree with the validity of a clock-for-clock comparison,
>>>>but if you want to do it anyway, I'll again point to Vincent's
>>>>numbers:
>>>>
>>>>At the same clockspeed, Crafty only gets 33% faster on the 64-bits
>>>>machine.
>>>>
>>>>When you read this, keep in mind that most applications get _more_
>>>>than 33% faster on the 64-bits machine.
>>>
>>>All the new 64 bit chips in the discussion are pretty much beta stage right
>>>now.
>>
>>Not true for the Alpha.
>
>Depends on the alpha being discussed.  DEC had processors beyond the 21264
>running.  Although the 21264 was pretty good.  Dann was a bit off on the
>performance as Tim Mann was running a 21264 at 600mhz and getting right at
>1M nodes per second.  Mckinley is getting 1.5M at 1000mhz, so the alpha might
>have a bit of an advantage still. but it is pretty small...
>
>Mckinley is only available to a select few.  21264's are fairly common.
>Anything beyond that is not readily available...
>
>
>>
>>>So, I think that architecturally, it makes good sense to design for a 64 bit
>>>system right now.
>>
>>That makes sense, if the 64 bit design is actually faster than the corresponding
>>32 bit design (even on 64 bit hardware if you wish).
>>
>>The case for bitboards is not clear on that matter. Certainly, if
>>the speedup over nonbitboards is only 33% they will have a hard time
>>convincingly beating alternative appraoches even on 64 bit hardware.
>>
>>--
>>GCP
>
>You are assuming that bitboards are _slower_ than non-bitboard programs on
>32 bit machines.  I haven't seen this demonstrated yet.  We can always do some
>sort of a test.  IE since the most common move generator issue is "generate all
>captures" we can try that with bitboard and non-bitboard approaches to see if
>one is really much better than the other on 32 bit machines.  I don't think so
>myself.  I think they are pretty equal due to the multiple pipe issue.
>
>But a test could be done to see, since this is the most common thing needed
>in a chess engine.



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