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Subject: Re: engame test position

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 08:48:47 06/12/02

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On June 11, 2002 at 14:15:32, Dieter Buerssner wrote:

>On June 11, 2002 at 08:21:47, Bernhard Bauer wrote:
>
>>On June 10, 2002 at 23:32:22, K. Burcham wrote:
>>
>>>Atilla Koranyi, second prize Bron Memorial Tournament 1986.
>>>White wins the endgame in 15 moves!!
>>>
>>>
>>>How long does it take your favorite program to find g5?
>>>
>>> 7k/5K2/5P1p/3p4/6P1/3p4/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>
>>Yace 99.56 on a P3-450 finds it too!
>>
>> 143196002 10:57.4   0.00 20t  1.Ke7 d2 2.f7 d1=Q 3.f8=Q+ Kh7 4.Qf7+ Kh8 5.g5
>>                               Qe1+ 6.Kd7 hxg5 7.Qh5+ Kg7 8.Qxg5+ {EGTB} {-80}
>> 163212921 12:31.3   0.01 20t+ 1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 d2 3.f7 d1=N
>> 163368822 12:32.1   0.40 20++ 1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 d2 3.f7 d1=R 4.f8=Q+ Kh7
>> 163449232 12:32.5   1.40 20++ 1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 d2 3.f7 d1=R 4.f8=Q+ Kh7
>> 163507174 12:32.9   6.40 20++ 1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 Kg8 3.f7+ Kh7
>> 197940297 14:22.6  Mat15 20t  1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 d2 3.f7 d1=Q 4.f8=Q+ Kh7 5.Qf5+
>>                               Kh6 6.Kf7 Qh5+ 7.Kf6 d4 8.Qe4 d3 9.Qxd3 {EGTB}
>>                               {-80}
>> 198009708 14:23.2  Mat15 20.  1.g5 hxg5 2.Ke7 d2 3.f7 d1=Q 4.f8=Q+ Kh7 5.Qf5+
>>                               Kh6 6.Kf7 Qh5+ 7.Kf6 d4 8.Qe4 d3 9.Qxd3 {EGTB}
>>                               {-80}
>>Congratulation to YACE!!!
>
>Thanks. I fear Yace without TBs could not find it in reasonable time. I tried
>this with my current developement version. First with access to 5-men TBs (I
>only have a small set, including KQPKQ). K6-2 475 (which is somewhat slower than
>your computer, judging from the nodes/s):
>
>  36021734  4:17.2   0.00 20t  1. Ke8 d2 2. f7 d1=Q 3. f8=Q+ Kh7 4. Qf7+ Kh8
>                               5. Qf8+ {-80}
>  50815736  6:25.9   0.01 20t+ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=R 4. f8=Q+ Kh7
>  50894554  6:26.4   0.40 20++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=R 4. f8=Q+ Kh7
>  50949756  6:26.8   1.40 20++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=R 4. f8=Q+ Kh7
>  53486521  6:41.5   6.40 20++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=R 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh8
> 121278955 12:03.8  Mat15 20t  1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4 8. Qe4 d3 9.
>                               Qxd3 {EGTB} 9...Qe8! 10. Qh3+!! Qh5 11. Qf5!!
>                               g4! 12. Qf4+!! Kh7! 13. Qc7+! Qf7+! 14. Qxf7+!
>                               Kh8 15. Qg7#! {921}
> 121411479 12:05.8  Mat15 20.  1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4 8. Qe4 d3 9.
>                               Qxd3 {EGTB} 9...Qe8! 10. Qh3+!! Qh5 11. Qf5!!
>                               g4! 12. Qf4+!! Kh7! 13. Qc7+! Qf7+! 14. Qxf7+!
>                               Kh8 15. Qg7#! {921}
>
>BTW. The strange "fail high lines" with d1=R may come from the fact that KRPKQ
>is not available.
>
>Now, without access to the 5-men TBs (4-men info available)
>
> 263796631 27:04.6   0.00 22.  1. Ke8 d2 2. f7 d1=Q 3. f8=Q+ Kh7 4. Qf7+ Kh8
>                               5. Qf8+ {-80}
> 371975328 38:27.5   0.00 23t  1. Ke8 d2 2. f7 d1=Q 3. f8=Q+ Kh7 4. Qf7+ Kh8
>                               5. Qf8+ {-80}
> 504848287 51:46.3   0.01 23t+ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6H d4H {HT}
> 506037089 51:53.0   0.40 23++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4
> 506419892 51:55.1   1.40 23++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4
> 526772274 53:44.2   6.40 23++ 1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4
> 845165857 1:15:22  Mat15 23t  1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4 8. Qe4 d3 9.
>                               Qxd3 Qe8 10. Qh3+ Qh5 11. Qf5 g4 12. Qf4+ Kh7
>                               13. Qc7+ Qf7+ 14. Qxf7+ Kh6 15. Qg6# {921}
> 845773943 1:15:25  Mat15 23.  1. g5 hxg5 2. Ke7 d2 3. f7 d1=Q 4. f8=Q+ Kh7 5.
>                               Qf5+ Kh6 6. Kf7 Qh5+ 7. Kf6 d4 8. Qe4 d3 9.
>                               Qxd3 Qe8 10. Qh3+ Qh5 11. Qf5 g4 12. Qf4+ Kh7
>                               13. Qc7+ Qf7+ 14. Qxf7+ Kh6 15. Qg6# {921}
>
>I think, you are totally right about the "nullmove killer". The most interesting
>position in the line may be:
>
>[D] 8/4K3/7k/3p1Qp1/8/8/8/3q4 w - - 3 6
>
>I guess many nullmove using programs may fail to find Kf7 here, even when you
>give them lots of time.
>
>Regards,
>Dieter

I suspect that a lot of null movers without tablebases are also going to fail to
find Qf5 even if you give them many hour in the following position that is
clearly more simple.

[D]8/8/5K1k/6pq/8/7Q/8/8 w - - 0 1

I suspect that movei of today is never going to find Qf5.

Uri



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