Author: Uri Blass
Date: 09:20:12 06/29/02
Go up one level in this thread
On June 29, 2002 at 11:41:02, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On June 29, 2002 at 11:02:34, Manfred Meiler wrote: > >I asked the makers a few questions. > >To sum up some points: > > a) why is tiger #1 at the endgame testsuite, because > tiger1 is the worst endgame program among the commercials, > in contradiction to tiger2 which seemingly is doing somewhat > better there. > b) why is fritz ranked #1 at the positional test positions, despite > that it is one of the weakest positional programs within the > commercial range, because of a lack of knowledge > c) i didn't question the patzer moves for the king safety testset, > it is known fritz always goes to the king of the opponent > d) the testsuite doesn't hav epositions to avoid playing patzermoves, > instead it only gives bonuses for making patzermoves. > e) 50% of the games get decided on the left, the other 50% the right. > the left is called queenside. Out of 100 positions or whatever > perhaps a few have to do with queenside and even then it's about > big patzer moves. Not positional moves > >The only answers i got was: "well it is the best program so who cares". >Reality is that *any* analysis they give about a position is done with >a program which forward prunes like hell positional moves (fritz). I >measure it pruning up to 7 ply positoinal lines forward. Rook manoeuvres, >knight manoeuvres that do *not* go in the direction of the king, >all kind of positional moves it is missing. > >Also i asked some analysis *never* the guys have ever shown a >line which they didn't analyze with fritz. These guys *only* >analyze with fritz7. > >The only good thing about the testset is that they did effort to >collect some positions from positions as played by the ex world champs, >usually new testsets are positions i have already seen 100 times. > >Yet the reality is that the accuracy of their analysis is based upon fritz7, >this is the *main* problem. Of course never having played active chess >in the past years, it's hard for someone who isn't a titled active playing >player, to get an objective analysis of a position, but just analyzing >a position for correctness with fritz7, that's obviously colouring a >testset. > >Note that the testset is called 'css' WMtestset. Talking about attaching >a name. I remember that chessbase started to sell not so long ago a >program which is 4 folded world champion (1997,1999,2000,2001). >My german isn't that bad, but "nearly as good as fritz" was the >highest honour they give a program *ever*. > >Lacking world titles, despite very good preparement from their side, >obviously they need other means to push their program. Amazingly a few >amateurs who know very little from what chess is, are serving them >well. > >If you call your thing 'wmtest set', then you should also include positions >where a program must AVOID moves. Basically 99% of the testset should be >like that. > >Let me give you a simple example of a position where you >have a simple BM: 1.d4,d5 2.d4,e5 3.dxe5 then let engines >search after that. > >The BM here is simply d5-d4 > >Amazingly not so simple for chess programs. > >Completely different are patzer positions where giving away a pawn >for an open file against the opponent king is measuring something we >already have seen too much in other testsets. > >I remember GS2930, a program that's giving away pawns there within a few >seconds a move, is obviously positional not so strong. It says something >about how AGGRESSIVE a program is, but nothing about how GOOD a program is. > >Biggest criticism i have at such testsets which claim to give a good >estimation how good a program is, is the question: "why is shredder6 so >low at a few crucial points which the testset is supposed to adress? >Isn't it 4 folded world champion?" I do not care about the question which program is the world champion. This tournament is not important from the point of view of the user. I am more interested to see which program can win something similiar to the nunn match against other programs when the only difference is the starting position(you can choose positions that are going to happen after 15 moves in the next wc championship so nobody can prepare for the positions). Uri
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