Author: José Carlos
Date: 17:08:14 07/12/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 12, 2002 at 18:58:29, Sune Fischer wrote: >On July 12, 2002 at 18:23:47, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On July 12, 2002 at 17:15:13, Sune Fischer wrote: >> >>>On July 12, 2002 at 16:38:20, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On July 12, 2002 at 11:52:13, Dan Wulff wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> I play white, you play black. The game goes: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 Ng8 3. Nf3 Nf6 >>>>>>>4. Ng1 Ng8 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Ng1 Ng8 7. Nf3 Nf6 ... It's perfectly legal because 3rd >>>>>>>repetition must be claimed by the players. In this game, either you or me can >>>>>>>claim draw by third repetition whenever we want, with or without making a move, >>>>>>>because there have been some positions (4 in this case) repeated 3 or more >>>>>>>times. >>>>>>> I'm 100% sure about this point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>You're right. Either something changed in the rules over time or my memory is >>>>>>failing me ;-). From the FIDE rules: >>>>>> >>>>>>'9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when >>>>>>the same position, for at least the third time (no necessarily by sequential >>>>>>repetition of moves) >>>>>>a) is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and >>>>>>declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or >>>>>>b) has just appeard, and the player claiming the draw has the move. >>>>>> >>>>>>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the >>>>>>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the >>>>>>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. >>>>>>Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant >>>>>>can no longer be captured or if the right to castle has been changed temporarily >>>>>>or permanently.' >>>>> >>>>>You are wrong........ Read the above again: "is about to appear" or "has just >>>>>appeared". This implies that you CANNOT claim the draw if you play on from the >>>>>3rd repetition, and for example claim a draw ten moves later. >>>>> >>>>>Greetings >>>>> >>>>>Dan Wulff >>>>>(The Gandalf Team) >>>> >>>> >>>>This is correct. You can claim it before you move if the position has been >>>>repeated 3 times. You can claim it after you move if the move causes the >>>>position to be repeated for the third time. >>> >>>No, you have to claim it _before_ you make the move, because only the person _in >>>the move_ can claim it. If it is you who repeates the second time, then it is >>>your opponent who can claim the draw, you had your chance before you made your >>>move. >>> >>>-S. >> >>In my old rule book, the definition of "when is your move completed?" was >>quite clear. You can do either of the following to claim a repetition: > >OK, but please lets not discuss old books, lets look at the present FIDE rules >only, or there will be no end to the discussion:) > >I think the rules state, that you have to be _in the move_ when claiming the >draw. >Moving the piece makes it your opponents turn, ie. you indicate by making the >move and continuing the game that you do not wish to claim the draw. > >Perhaps it is a bit silly that you are not allowed to make the move and stop the >clock, but if it's not mentioned in the rules... > >The reason is, I guess, that a 2 fold repetition can only be seen on the >scoresheet. The position on the board doesn't convey the relevant information. > >-S. > >>1. You can claim that the position on the board before you move is a >>three-fold repetition, that you have been in this same position three >>times in the past. You can make the claim, stop the clock and ask the >>TD to verify your claim. >> >>2. You can say "I claim a draw by three-fold repetition after I make the >>move XXX." You do _not_ make the move, you do stop the clock and call the >>TD over to verify the claim. >> >>IE in either case you really don't make a move on the board, you simply >>express your intention to do so in the second case and then call the TD to >>comfirm the claim. >> >>Once you make the move and hit the clock, your opportunity to claim the >>draw is _gone_. It is no longer your move. Your opponent might choose to >>make a claim, if he can, or he might choose to make a move that makes it >>impossible for you to claim a repetition on your next move... his choice. >> >>I don't know if the rules for claiming a draw have changed or not, but that >>is how they were expressed when I was playing actively and when I ran a lot >>of Scholastic-type events at the university chess club many years ago... >> >>However I am _certain_ that you can claim a three-fold repetition if either >>(a) the position before you move has occurred three times in the game; or >>(b) the position _after_ the move you intend to play will have occurred three >>times in the game. You can make a valid claim for _either_ circumstance, so >>long as you don't make a move and press the clock. And I think that in the >>case of newer rules, you don't even need to press the clock to "end your move" >>which is why you don't actually make the move that would cause the repetition. >>You inform the TD of your intention to both make it _and_ claim a draw. >> >> >> >>> >>>>If you pass on making the claim, >>>>then you can't make it later unless the position is repeated _again_ (the 4th >>>>time for example). Interesting discussion, you and Bob are saying the same post after post :) José C.
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