Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 21:51:53 07/13/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 13, 2002 at 21:41:36, Omid David wrote:
>On July 13, 2002 at 08:51:33, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On July 13, 2002 at 05:47:29, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On July 13, 2002 at 04:02:29, Jan Kiwitter wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 00:20:02, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hi Dan
>>>>
>>>>>I think he is around IM level, if I recall correctly. (2100 German rating)
>>>>
>>>>In this case your information is wrong. I myself have about 2150 German rating
>>>>and I am far from playing at IM level.
>>>>
>>>>Regards
>>>>Jan
>>>
>>>Some simple truths:
>>>
>>>° Human players with FIDE (not US or Britain or some national rankings) Elo
>>>level of about 2000 or 2100 are incredibly strong amateurs. They all know more
>>>about chess than any commercial or amateur program.
>>
>>I do not believe in it.
>>
>>I had fide rating of slightly more than 2000 and I lost it.
>>I believe that I am at the level of 2000-2100 fide rating(unfortunately a
>>tournament when I did good results against players with fide rating was not
>>included in the fide rating).
>>
>>My israeli rating that is eqvivalent to fide rating is again more than
>>2000(2021).
>>
>>I expect chess programs to beat me with no opening book
>>after 1.a3 a6 or 1.h4 h5.
>>
>>There are positions when humans with 2000-2100 can play better than the machines
>>but there are also a lot of positions when machines play better than 2000-2100
>>humans.
>>
>>>
>>>° The most important difference between such human amateurs and the progs is not
>>>their chess but the huge opening books stuff. No amateur is able to know the
>>>details of so many openings.
>>
>>The biggest difference is the speed of the machines.
>>machines calculates too fast for humans.
>>
>>No amatuer is able to search even 1K nodes per second.
>>
>>>
>>>° If such a human expert meets a computer program (with the books) he normally
>>>has no chance - exception if he could prepare special anti-computerchess.
>>
>>>
>>>° IM start around 2400! With 2150 you are lightyears away from IM. IM know all
>>>about chess. Know openings until move 30 into the endgames.
>>
>>
>>I do not believe in it.
>>IM's do not know all about chess(otherwise they could avoid losing games).
>>
>>Even kasparov and kramnik do not know all about chess.
>>
>>Uri
>
>I still consider computers as very dumb chess players. On many occasions I
>manage to beat strong programs like Fritz or Junior merely by positional
>knowledge. Considering that I'm not a very strong player (2250 ELO), it means
>that computers severely lack chess knowledge. Don't forget that humans sometimes
>even outsearch programs in some tactical lines, since humans can consider
>extremely deep variations which no program can. Programs use 99% of their search
>time on searching "unplausible" moves (as said in the 1970s!). I believe the top
>50 players in FIDE rating least, can easily crush any computer in a match.
Have you seen Chris Carson's database of computer verse GM games?
I think you are far too optimistic ("easily crush" is too strong).
Computers don't really plan, and often do not understand the openings they are
playing. But in the middle game, they will see any microscopic tactic to
wheedle away a pawn and nickel and dime you to death. And if you should make a
tiny slip, the computer will never fail to see it.
The Evergreen game? Computers refuse the sacrifice.
Some of Morphy's most brilliant combinations? Even amateur programs see them
with ease.
Computers are tactically much better than nearly all humans, including most
GM's. Positionally they are weaker. But tactics can also win a battle, as well
as strategy.
Perhaps this will dampen your enthusiasm for the certainty of such an outcome:
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Deep Fritz"]
[Black "Huebner, R"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[BlackElo "2612"]
[ECO "A28"]
[PlyCount "47"]
1.e4 e6 2.c4 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.d4 Bb4 6.d5 Ne7 7.Nxe5 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3
d6 9.Nf3 Nxe4 10.Bd3 Nc5 11.Bb1 Bf5 12.O-O O-O 13.Re1 Bxb1 14.Rxb1 Re8 15.
Ba3 b6 16.Bxc5 dxc5 17.Rb2 Ng6 18.Rxe8+ Qxe8 19.Re2 Qd7 20.Ne5 Nxe5 21.
Rxe5 Re8 22.f4 f6 23.Re2 Kf8 24.g3 1/2-1/2
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Huebner, R"]
[Black "Deep Fritz"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[ECO "C96"]
[PlyCount "90"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 cxd4 12.cxd4 exd4 13.Nxd4 Bb7 14.Nf5 Rc8 15.Bf4
Nc4 16.b3 Ne5 17.Nd2 Re8 18.Rc1 Bf8 19.Bb1 Rxc1 20.Qxc1 b4 21.Qd1 d5 22.
Nf1 Ng6 23.Bg5 h6 24.Bxf6 Qxf6 25.exd5 Rxe1 26.Qxe1 Bxd5 27.Qd2 Be6 28.Nd4
Bd7 29.Be4 Nf4 30.Ne2 Nxe2+ 31.Qxe2 Bc5 32.Ne3 Qa1+ 33.Qd1 Qxd1+ 34.Nxd1
f5 35.Bd3 Bc8 36.Nb2 Kf7 37.Bc4+ Kf6 38.Nd3 Bd6 39.f4 Bb7 40.g3 a5 41.Kf2
g5 42.h4 Be4 43.hxg5+ hxg5 44.Bb5 gxf4 45.gxf4 Bxd3 1/2-1/2
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Deep Fritz"]
[Black "Huebner, R"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[BlackElo "2612"]
[ECO "C01"]
[PlyCount "100"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.c4 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 O-O 7.Be2 dxc4 8.
Bxc4 Bg4 9.O-O Nc6 10.Be3 Qd7 11.a3 Ba5 12.Rc1 Rad8 13.Na4 Bb6 14.Nxb6
axb6 15.b4 Qd6 16.b5 Na5 17.Be2 Nd5 18.Qd3 Rfe8 19.Ng5 Bxe2 20.Qxh7+ Kf8
21.Rfe1 Nxe3 22.Rxe2 Qh6 23.fxe3 Qxg5 24.Rxc7 Qh6 25.Qxh6 gxh6 26.Kf2 Rc8
27.Rec2 Rxc7 28.Rxc7 Re7 29.Rc8+ Re8 30.Rc7 f5 31.Kf3 Re7 32.Rc8+ Kf7 33.
Kf4 Ke6 34.Rf8 Rf7 35.d5+ Ke7 36.Rxf7+ Kxf7 37.Kxf5 Nc4 38.e4 Nxa3 39.g4
Nxb5 40.e5 Nc7 41.d6 Ne6 42.h4 b5 43.g5 Ng7+ 44.Ke4 hxg5 45.hxg5 b4 46.Kd3
Kg6 47.Kc4 Kxg5 48.Kxb4 Kf5 49.Kc5 Kxe5 50.Kb6 Kxd6 1/2-1/2
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Huebner, R"]
[Black "Deep Fritz"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[ECO "C96"]
[PlyCount "41"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 cxd4 12.cxd4 Bb7 13.d5 Nc4 14.b3 Nb6 15.a4 bxa4
16.bxa4 Qc7 17.Na3 Nbd7 18.Nd2 Rab8 19.Ndc4 Nc5 20.Rb1 Ba8 21.Rxb8 1/2-1/2
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Deep Fritz"]
[Black "Huebner, R"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[BlackElo "2612"]
[ECO "D17"]
[PlyCount "57"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 Nbd7 7.Nxc4 Nb6 8.Ne5
e6 9.f3 Nfd7 10.a5 Nxe5 11.axb6 Nd7 12.e4 Bg6 13.bxa7 Qb6 14.f4 Bb4 15.Qd3
O-O 16.Be2 Nf6 17.f5 exf5 18.exf5 Bh5 19.Bxh5 Nxh5 20.O-O Rxa7 21.Rxa7
Qxa7 22.Bg5 Re8 23.g4 Bxc3 24.bxc3 Nf6 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Qg3 h6 27.Re1 Rxe1+
28.Qxe1 Qa2 29.h3 1/2-1/2
[Event "Sparkassen Match 2001"]
[Site "Dortmund"]
[Date "2001.07.01"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Huebner, R"]
[Black "Deep Fritz"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[ECO "B17"]
[PlyCount "18"]
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Nxf6+ Nxf6 7.Ne5 Nd7 8.
Nf3 Nf6 9.Ne5 Nd7 1/2-1/2
==============================================================================
A fluke? Here is another match against a GM (not top 50 but a great player):
[Event "Chess Events Maastricht"]
[Site "Maastricht NED"]
[Date "2001.01.02"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Black "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B08p"]
[Variation "Pirc: Classical, 5.Be2 O-O 6.O-O c6"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "180"]
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c6 4. Nf3 d6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 Nbd7 8.
Bf4 Qa5 9. Qd2 e5 10. Bh6 Re8 11. Bxg7 Kxg7 12. Rad1 Qb6 13. Qc1 Nf8 14.
dxe5 dxe5 15. Rd2 Bg4 16. Red1 Bxf3 17. Bxf3 Ne6 18. b3 Rad8 19. a3 Rxd2
20. Rxd2 Nd4 21. Rd3 Rd8 22. b4 a5 23. Na4 Qb5 24. Nc3 Qb6 25. Na4 Qb5 26.
Nc3 Qc4 27. bxa5 Ra8 28. Bd1 Rxa5 29. Rh3 Ne6 30. Qh6+ Kg8 31. Qh4 Nf4 32.
Re3 Rxa3 33. Qxf6 Rxc3 34. Qxe5 Rxe3 35. fxe3 Ne6 36. Bg4 Qc5 37. Qxc5 Nxc5
38. e5 Kf8 39. Kf2 Ke7 40. Kg3 h5 41. Be2 Ne4+ 42. Kf4 Nc3 43. Bf3 Ke6 44.
g3 Nd5+ 45. Ke4 c5 46. c4 Nb6 47. Kd3 Nd7 48. Bd5+ Kf5 49. e4+ Kg5 50. e6
Ne5+ 51. Ke2 fxe6 52. Bxe6 h4 53. gxh4+ Kxh4 54. Kf2 Kg5 55. Kg3 Kf6 56.
Bd5 g5 57. Kg2 b6 58. Kg3 Ke7 59. h3 Kf6 60. Kf2 Nd3+ 61. Kf3 Ke5 62. Kg3
Kf6 63. Kg4 Kg6 64. Kf3 Ne5+ 65. Ke2 g4 66. hxg4 Nxg4 67. Be6 Ne5 68. Kf2
Kf6 69. Bd5 Ng6 70. Kf3 Ke5 71. Ke3 Ne7 72. Bb7 Ng8 73. Bc8 Nf6 74. Bf5 Ne8
75. Kd3 Kf4 76. Be6 Nf6 77. Bf5 Ng8 78. Bd7 Ne7 79. Be8 Ng8 80. Bg6 Nf6 81.
Bf5 Nh5 82. Bh3 Ng3 83. Bg2 Ke5 84. Ke3 Nh5 85. Bh1 Nf6 86. Bf3 Ne8 87. Be2
Nd6 88. Bd3 Nb7 89. Bc2 Na5 90. Bd3 Nc6 1/2-1/2
[Event "Chess Events Naastricht"]
[Site "Maastricht NED"]
[Date "2001.01.03"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Black "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D10g"]
[Variation "Slav: Exchange, 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bf4 Nc6 6.e3 a6"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "147"]
1. c3 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. cxd4 d5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bf4 Nc6 6. e3 a6 7. Bd3 Bg4 8.
Nge2 e6 9. Rc1 Bd6 10. Bxd6 Qxd6 11. Qd2 Nb4 12. Ng3 Nxd3+ 13. Qxd3 O-O 14.
O-O Rfc8 15. e4 Qb4 16. h3 Bh5 17. Nxh5 Nxh5 18. exd5 Nf4 19. Qe4 Nxd5 20.
Nxd5 exd5 21. Rxc8+ Rxc8 22. Qxd5 Qxb2 23. Qd7 Rf8 24. d5 b5 25. Re1 Qd2
26. Re3 Qxa2 27. d6 Qa1+ 28. Kh2 Qf6 29. Qc7 Qf4+ 30. Kg1 g6 31. g3 Qd4 32.
Qe7 Rc8 33. Rf3 Qd1+ 34. Kg2 Qd5 35. d7 Rf8 36. g4 a5 37. Kg3 Kg7 38. Rc3
Qa8 39. Qe5+ Kg8 40. Qxb5 Rd8 41. Re3 Kf8 42. Qc5+ Kg8 43. Qc7 Kf8 44. Qd6+
Kg8 45. Re7 Rf8 46. Qe5 Qh1 47. Qd4 Qa8 48. h4 Qd8 49. Qe5 h6 50. Qd6 a4
51. f4 a3 52. Qxa3 Qb8 53. Qe3 Qd6 54. Kh3 Qd5 55. h5 gxh5 56. gxh5 Kh7 57.
Qe4+ Qxe4 58. Rxe4 Rd8 59. Rd4 Kg7 60. Kg4 Kf6 61. Rd6+ Ke7 62. Rxh6 Rxd7
63. Ra6 Kf8 64. Kg5 Kg7 65. h6+ Kh7 66. Ra8 Rd6 67. Rf8 Rg6+ 68. Kf5 Rxh6
69. Rxf7+ Kg8 70. Rb7 Kf8 71. Kg5 Ra6 72. f5 Rd6 73. Ra7 Rc6 74. Ra8+
1/2-1/2
[Event "Chess Events Maastricht"]
[Site "Maastricht NED"]
[Date "2001.01.04"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Black "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B15a"]
[Variation "Caro-Kann: 3.Nc3"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "118"]
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 a6 4. Be2 b5 5. a3 e6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. e5 Nfd7 8. Bg5
Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. b4 a5 11. Na2 axb4 12. axb4 O-O 13. Bd3 f6 14. exf6
gxf6 15. O-O Rf7 16. Re1 Nf8 17. Nh4 Qd8 18. Re3 Rg7 19. Rg3 Qe7 20. Qf3
Rxg3 21. Qxg3+ Qg7 22. Qd6 Qd7 23. Qf4 Qg7 24. Nf3 Bd7 25. Qc7 Be8 26. Qd8
Bg6 27. h3 Qf7 28. Bxg6 hxg6 29. Nh2 Kg7 30. Ng4 Nfd7 31. Qc7 e5 32. Qb7
Ra3 33. dxe5 fxe5 34. Nxe5 Nxe5 35. Qxb8 Qf6 36. Re1 Rxa2 37. Qxe5 Qxe5 38.
Rxe5 Rxc2 39. Re1 Kf6 40. Kf1 d4 41. Re8 Rc4 42. Rc8 Ke7 43. Ke2 Kd6 44.
Rd8+ Kc7 45. Rg8 Rxb4 46. Kd3 c5 47. Rg7+ Kb6 48. Rxg6+ Ka5 49. h4 Rb3+ 50.
Ke4 d3 51. Rd6 c4 52. g4 Rb2 53. g5 Re2+ 54. Kf3 Re8 55. Rd4 b4 56. Rxc4 b3
57. Rc1 b2 58. Rd1 Kb4 59. Kf4 Kc3 0-1
[Event "Chess Events Maastricht"]
[Site "Maastricht NED"]
[Date "2001.01.09"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Black "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A34"]
[Variation "English: Symmetrical, Rubinstein System"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "92"]
1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Nc3 Nc7 6. Qa4+ Bd7 7. Qb3 Bc6
8. Bxc6+ Nxc6 9. Qxb7 Nd4 10. Nf3 Rb8 11. Qe4 f5 12. Qd3 g6 13. O-O Bg7 14.
Qc4 Nxf3+ 15. exf3 Qd4 16. Qa4+ Qxa4 17. Nxa4 Ne6 18. Rb1 c4 19. b3 cxb3
20. Rxb3 Rxb3 21. axb3 Kf7 22. Bb2 Bxb2 23. Nxb2 Nd4 24. Ra1 Nxf3+ 25. Kg2
Nxd2 26. b4 Rb8 27. Nd3 Rb7 28. Ra6 Nc4 29. h4 e5 30. Rc6 e4 31. Rxc4 exd3
32. Rd4 Ke6 33. Kf3 d2 34. Ke2 Rd7 35. Rxd7 Kxd7 36. Kxd2 Kd6 37. Kc3 Kd5
38. f3 h6 39. Kb3 Kd4 40. Ka4 Ke3 41. f4 Kf3 42. Ka5 Kxg3 43. Ka6 Kxh4 44.
Kxa7 g5 45. fxg5 hxg5 46. b5 g4 0-1
[Event "Chess Events Maastricht"]
[Site "Maastrich t NED"]
[Date "2001.01.10"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Black "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C10u"]
[Variation "French: Rubinstein, 4...Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.O-O"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "89"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bd7 5. Nf3 Bc6 6. Bd3 Nd7 7. O-O Be7
8. Re1 Ngf6 9. Neg5 h6 10. Nxe6 fxe6 11. Bg6+ Kf8 12. Qe2 Bxf3 13. Qxf3 Kg8
14. Rxe6 c6 15. Qb3 Nd5 16. Qxb7 Nf8 17. Rxc6 Nb4 18. Bf4 Qd5 19. Qxa8 Qxc6
20. Qxc6 Nxc6 21. Bd3 Nxd4 22. Be3 Bc5 23. Bc4+ Kh7 24. Rd1 Nde6 25. Rd5
Bxe3 26. fxe3 Ng6 27. Bd3 Rd8 28. Rxd8 Nxd8 29. g4 Nc6 30. h4 Ne5 31. h5
Nxg4 32. Bxg6+ Kg8 33. e4 Kf8 34. b3 Ke7 35. c3 Ne3 36. c4 Nd1 37. Kf1 Nc3
38. a3 Kd6 39. Kf2 Kc5 40. Ke3 Nb1 41. Kd3 Nxa3 42. e5 a5 43. Bf5 a4 44. e6
axb3 45. e7 1-0
[Event "Chess Events Maastricht"]
[Site "Maastricht NED"]
[Date "2001.01.11"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Van der Wiel, John"]
[Black "Rebel Century 3.0"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A45g"]
[Variation "Indian: 2.c3"]
[EventDate "2001.??.??"]
[PlyCount "63"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c3 e6 3. Bg5 h6 4. Bh4 b6 5. Nd2 Bb7 6. e3 Be7 7. Ngf3 c5 8.
Bd3 O-O 9. Qe2 d5 10. Ne5 Nc6 11. f4 Ne4 12. Bxe7 Nxe7 13. O-O f6 14. Ng4
Nxd2 15. Qxd2 Nf5 16. Rf3 Rc8 17. Raf1 Qd7 18. Qe2 Rc7 19. Rh3 Rfc8 20. Nf2
Nd6 21. Qh5 Qe8 22. Bg6 Qa4 23. g4 Ba6 24. Re1 Qxa2 25. g5 fxg5 26. Ng4
Qxb2 27. Nxh6+ Kf8 28. Ng4 Nf7 29. Bxf7 Qxc3 30. Rd1 Qc2 31. Ra1 Qb2 32.
Re1 1/2-1/2
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Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.