Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 12:20:40 07/21/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 20, 2002 at 22:27:26, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 20, 2002 at 16:21:10, Christophe Theron wrote: > >>On July 20, 2002 at 16:02:54, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >> >>>On July 20, 2002 at 15:37:00, Christophe Theron wrote: >>> >>>>On July 19, 2002 at 23:12:28, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 19, 2002 at 23:08:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 19, 2002 at 22:15:31, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On July 19, 2002 at 21:43:40, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On July 19, 2002 at 15:50:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On July 19, 2002 at 15:25:48, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On July 18, 2002 at 12:14:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On July 18, 2002 at 05:58:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On July 17, 2002 at 13:18:40, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On July 16, 2002 at 11:01:23, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On July 15, 2002 at 13:11:09, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On July 15, 2002 at 08:37:34, Omid David wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't think using double null-move is a good idea in practice, since in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>midgame the chance of zugzwang is negligible and thus it's superfluous (I doubt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>if even DIEP uses it). However the contribution of double null-move is that it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gives legitimacy to the null-move pruning idea, proving that it _is_ a correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>search method (anyway, no one doubts null-move nowadays). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why does double null move prove that null move is a correct search method???? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doing two null moves in a row means going back to standard search (a search not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>involving an illegal move like null move is). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I fail to see how it legitimates null move. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Double nullmove legitimates (duh can't you use easier to spell words) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>itself, for the obvious reason that it is provable now that a search >>>>>>>>>>>>>>depth of n ply, where i may pick n, is going to solve any problem you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>give it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I see now. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>However, it is not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Due to a nasty interaction with the hash table algorithms, just allowing 2 null >>>>>>>>>>>>>moves in a row will NOT solve any problem. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>What you refer to is a practical impossibility (assuming you have >>>>>>>>>>>>a efficient search) : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> your assumption is that from a root position r >>>>>>>>>>>> with transition of some moves to position p, side stm to move and >>>>>>>>>>>> depthleft=d: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> r ==> p(stm,d) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that you visit this position with properties that >>>>>>>>>>>> before this move you have made 1 nullmove or less. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so ==> r , nullmove , p >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now a major problem for such an event to occur is that >>>>>>>>>>>> after 1 nullmove, sides change the side to move. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Why is this a problem? IE in my case, position P reached thru a path >>>>>>>>>>>with a null-move and position P reached thru a path without null-move >>>>>>>>>>>are _unique_ positions... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>If so, your programs loses a lot of opportunities to prune because it detects >>>>>>>>>>less transpositions. But maybe it avoids some problems and is benefical in the >>>>>>>>>>end, I do not know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>How much do programs earn by pruning based on hash tables? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Today I do not use hash tables to prune the tree. >>>>>>>>>I am interested to know how much rating programs earn from >>>>>>>>>using hash tables to prune the tree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>1)Did someone do the experiment of comparing the rating of >>>>>>>>>a chess program when hash tables are used only for things like order >>>>>>>>>of moves and the rating of the same program when hash tables are used also for >>>>>>>>>also to prune the tree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>2)How much speed improvement do programs get in middle game >>>>>>>>>from pruning based on hash tables? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Try position fine 70 with and without. Without you might get to depth 15 >>>>>>>>or so. With it you can reach depth 40. A _significant_ gain... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You're trying to drive Uri crazy aren't you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Did you really think Uri could not think of an example of a position where >>>>>>>having hash tables makes a significant difference? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Do you really think being able to search a position like Fine 70 to a depth of >>>>>>>40 instead of 15 will make a difference in a programs playing strength? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Don't you realize people are liable to react to such a reply as yours above as a >>>>>>>troll? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Please try to be a bit more thoughtful. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There was _no_ troll involved. Point by point. >>>>>> >>>>>>fine 70 _is_ an important hash test. It represents a near-best-case for >>>>>>hashing. Which is the best you can do. It increases the search depth by >>>>>>at least a factor of 3x in terms of plies searched. >>>>>> >>>>>>Will that help the program? Clearly in king and pawn endings I see 20+ ply >>>>>>searches _all_ the time. And _that_ definitely helps for those positions where >>>>>>K+P endings are reached. >>>>>> >>>>>>But if you want to take a middlegame position, hashing is worth at least a >>>>>>factor of 2x based on tests I have run in the past. I can always run them >>>>>>again. >>>>>> >>>>>>So to summarize, fine 70 was and is legitimate. It _clearly_ shows that >>>>>>hashing makes a significant difference. I hardly see why _your_ post wouldn't >>>>>>be considered a "troll" in fact. As it attacks a legitimate point in a >>>>>>utterly simplistic and wrong context... >>>>>> >>>>>>Perhaps you should follow your own advice and try to be more thoughtful. >>>>>>_prior_ to posting??? >>>>> >>>>>I did. You didn't...again. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Bob's post (the one you originally responded to) was perfectly fine. He just >>>>gave a meaningful information. >>>> >>>>Your posts are really borderline. I really fail to see what is the problem with >>>>Bob's post. >>>> >>>>Please don't start a war here. There is really no point. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Christophe >>> >>>I'm perplexed as to why you would take RHs side in this. My post was pretty mild >>>compared to some of the others that get posted here without rebuke from a >>>moderator including some of your own posts. I can only conclude that it is due >>>to RH's status in this forum. So be it. I will make no further posts in this >>>thread. >> >> >> >>No it's just that I see that this is going to degenerate pretty quickly into >>name-calling due to Bob's nature and your -in my opinion- unjustified comment. >> >>Yes your comment was mild, but it was not justified (again, in my opinion). I >>know Bob is going to react very harshly, and before he does I prefer to ask the >>one who was wrong (you, in my opinion) to reconsider. >> >>If I don't act immediately I will have to moderate Bob, and I'm not sure what is >>going to happen then. :) >> >> >> >> Christophe > > >Doesn't bother me at all to be moderated, as a general rule. I've said all I >intend to say anyway. No idea why he reacted as he did. No idea how he missed >the point I tried to make. But it isn't that important. The rest seemed to >"get it" ok.. OK, no problem. :) Christophe
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