Author: Slater Wold
Date: 11:03:58 07/25/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 25, 2002 at 12:11:02, John Merlino wrote: >On July 25, 2002 at 12:04:51, John Merlino wrote: > >>On July 25, 2002 at 00:55:34, Slater Wold wrote: >> >>>On July 24, 2002 at 23:55:58, John Merlino wrote: >>> >>>>On July 24, 2002 at 23:34:17, Slater Wold wrote: >>>> >>>>>[D]1N4br/3pkPp1/6PP/8/pp3P2/8/P4r1P/6K1 w - - 0 1' >>>>> >>>>>Every program I tested found the correct move in about 5 seconds. >>>>> >>>>>Every program I tested then failed low for 10-13 ply. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The real test here is not "finding" the move. But finding that it's winning. >>>>> >>>>>How long does it take your program to find hxg7, and _know_ it's winning? >>>> >>>>Chessmaster 9000 (PIII-600) finds the move instantly, and DOES fail low at ply >>>>10. After that, the eval stays steady through to ply 13. >>>> >>>>Time Depth Score Positions Moves >>>>0:00 1/3 3.32 1973 1.hxg7 Rhxh2 2.f8=Q+ Ke6 3.Qxg8+ >>>> Kd6 >>>>0:00 1/4 4.70 9531 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 >>>>0:00 1/5 4.40 16406 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Kg3 Kxg7 6.Nxd7 >>>>0:01 1/6 4.40 74263 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Kg3 Kxg7 6.Nxd7 >>>>0:01 1/7 4.39 87914 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 >>>> Kg6 >>>>0:02 2/8 4.42 124497 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 >>>> b3 >>>>0:02 3/9 3.80 203060 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.Nf6 >>>> Kxg7 7.Ne8+ Kg6 >>>>0:05 4/10 2.01 422430 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 >>>> axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 >>>>0:33 5/11 2.00 2574161 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 >>>> axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 >>>>1:05 6/12 2.07 5089526 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 >>>> axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 >>>> Ke6 >>>>3:04 7/13 2.03 14522913 1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 >>>> Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 >>>> axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 >>>> Ke6 10.Nb2 >>>> >>>>HOWEVER, hxg7 still appears to lose anyway! After forcing CM9000's main line of >>>>1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 Kxf7 (and you should agree that all >>>>of White's moves are forced), we get this position: >>>> >>>>[D]1N6/3p1kP1/8/8/pp3P2/8/P6K/8 w - - 0 5 >>>> >>>>And Chessmaster says this: >>>> >>>>Time Depth Score Positions Moves >>>>0:00 1/3 3.06 356 5.Kg3 b3 6.Nxd7 bxa2 >>>>0:00 1/3 4.38 392 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 Kg6 >>>>0:00 1/4 4.41 945 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 b3 >>>>0:00 1/5 3.77 4520 5.Nxd7 b3 6.Nf6 Kxg7 7.Ne8+ Kg6 >>>>0:00 2/6 2.00 11934 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 >>>> 8.Nc4 Kf6 >>>>0:00 3/7 1.99 25482 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 >>>> 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 >>>>0:00 4/8 2.06 50786 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 >>>> 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 Ke6 >>>>0:00 5/9 2.01 99429 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ Kxg7 >>>> 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 Ke6 10.Nb2 >>>>0:02 6/10 -2.43 204435 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.b4 a2 8.b5 >>>> a1=Q 9.b6 Qxg7 10.Kh3 Ke6 >>>>0:04 7/11 -3.32 479598 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.Nf6 Kxg7 >>>> 8.Ne8+ Kf8 9.Nd6 a2 10.b4 a1=Q >>>> 11.b5 Qd4 >>>>0:07 8/12 -3.73 740137 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.Nf6 Kxg7 >>>> 8.Ne8+ Kf8 9.Nc7 a2 10.Ne6+ Ke7 >>>> 11.Nd4 a1=Q 12.Nc6+ Kd6 13.Ne5 >>>>0:13 9/13 -4.20 1263381 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.Nf6 Kxg7 >>>> 8.Ne8+ Kf8 9.Nf6 a2 10.Nh7+ Kg7 >>>> 11.Ng5 a1=Q 12.Ne6+ Kf6 13.Nc5 Qd4 >>>>0:24 10/14 -4.44 2318389 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.Nf6 Kxg7 >>>> 8.Nh5+ Kf8 9.f5 a2 10.Nf4 a1=Q >>>> 11.Kh3 Qc3+ 12.Kg4 Kf7 13.Ne6 Qxb3 >>>>0:47 11/15 -4.52 4484987 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.g8=Q+ Kxg8 >>>> 8.Kh3 a2 9.Kg4 a1=Q 10.Ne5 Qd1+ >>>> 11.Kg5 Qxb3 12.f5 Qe3+ 13.Kf6 Qh6+ >>>> 14.Ng6 Qg7+ 15.Ke6 Qf7+ 16.Ke5 >>>>1:09 12/16 -4.60 6779430 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 a3 7.g8=Q+ Kxg8 >>>> 8.Kh3 a2 9.Kg4 a1=Q 10.Ne5 Qd1+ >>>> 11.Kg5 Qxb3 12.f5 Qd5 13.Ng6 Qd2+ >>>> 14.Kf6 Qd6+ 15.Kg5 Kg7 >>>> >>>>Is CM9000 missing something? >>>> >>>>jm >>> >>>Yes, yes, there is. It's called about 80 ply. >>> >>>Ok, here's the situation: >>> >>>When black comes down with it's rooks, which are pretty much forced moves, >>>*every* programs natural reaction is to take the rooks. Why? Because they are >>>free rooks! >>> >>>However, if you DO take both rooks, you lose. >>> >>>Here is how the game goes, all moves are forced: >>> >>>1.hxg7 Rg2+ 2.Kf1 Rf2+ 3.Ke1 Re2+ 4.Kd1 Rd2+ 5.Kc1 Rc2+ 6.Kb1 Rb2+ 7.Ka1 Rxa2+ >>>8.Kb1 Rb2+ 9.Kc1 Rc2+ 10.Kd1 Rd2+ 11.Ke1 Re2+ 12.Kf1 Rf2+ 13.Kg1 Rg2+ 14.Kxg2 >>>Rxh2+ 15.Kxh2 Bxf7 16.gxf7 Kxf7 17.Nxd7 a3 18.Nc5 a2 19.Nb3 Kxg7 20.Kg3 Kf6 >>>21.Kf3 Kf5 22.Na1 Ke6 23.Ke4 Kf6 24.f5 Kf7 25.Ke5 Kg7 26.Ke6 Kg8 27.Ke7 Kg7 >>>28.f6+ Kg6 29.f7 Kf5 30.f8Q+ Ke5 31.Qb8+ Kd4 32.Qxb4+ Ke3 33.Qb2 Kd3 34.Qf2 Kc3 >>>35.Kd6 Kc4 36.Kc6 Kc3 37.Kc5 Kd3 38.Kd5 Kc3 39.Qd4# 1-0 >>> >>> >>>So perhaps the REAL problem here is not the original position, rather this >>>position: >>> >>>[D]1N4br/3pkPP1/6P1/8/pp3P2/8/P5rP/6K1 w - - 0 2 >>> >>> >>>However, in order to solve this, you have to attain 2 things: >>> >>>1.) Taking the rook would be BAD! Most programs will see that, eventually. >>>However they are unable to see it in the original position. >>> >>>2.) That if you race down to the other side of the board, let the rook take the >>>pawn, and then race back, you will be able to stop the advancing pawns on a and >>>b, as well as win the pawn race on the other side of the board. >>> >>> >>>#1 is obtainable. >>> >>>#2 is not. >>> >>> >>>Most programs I have tested, if given enough time will eventually realize that >>>taking the rook will result in a promotion of the a or b pawns. So they go with >>>Kf1 however they give a stupid line that kind of goes no where. >>> >>>I thought it was an interesting position anyway. ;) >> >>That will teach me to make my program look bad! :-( If I had the test on the >>original position go one ply more, it would have seen that 2.Kxg2 was bad. Here >>are the results on the above position (after 1.hxg7 Rg2+) on a PIII-733: >> >>Time Depth Score Positions Moves >>0:00 1/4 4.40 1188 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Kg3 Kxg7 6.Nxd7 >>0:00 1/5 4.40 2979 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Kg3 Kxg7 6.Nxd7 >>0:00 1/6 4.39 7499 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 Kg6 >>0:00 1/7 4.42 17895 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 Kxg7 6.Kg3 b3 >>0:00 2/8 3.79 43104 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.Nf6 Kxg7 7.Ne8+ >> Kg6 >>0:00 3/9 2.00 78402 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ >> Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 >>0:01 4/10 1.99 128509 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ >> Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 >>0:03 5/11 2.06 283934 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ >> Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 Ke6 >>0:06 6/12 2.02 620929 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.gxf7 >> Kxf7 5.Nxd7 b3 6.axb3 axb3 7.Ne5+ >> Kxg7 8.Nc4 Kf6 9.Kg3 Ke6 10.Nb2 >>0:36 7/13 -0.29 3171539 2.Kxg2 Rxh2+ 3.Kxh2 Bxf7 4.Nxd7 >> Bxa2 5.Nc5 Kf6 6.f5 Kxg7 7.Nxa4 >> Bb1 8.f6+ Kxf6 9.g7 Kxg7 10.Nb2 >>2:57 7/13 0.00 15699313 2.Kf1 Rf2+ 3.Kg1 >> >>I guess I have an itchy trigger finger these days.... >> >>Great position, though! >> >>jm > >And, just to further the discussion, the above final PV and eval were repeated >at the next depth after 9:03. > >jm Uh hum...and how long to see a win? Or does it just go for the reps?
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