Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 09:12:42 07/29/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 29, 2002 at 10:56:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
ICC is the worst test ground to test an engine.
Let me give a bunch of reasons
a) you don't see the evaluation of the opponent
b) you play a very quick level, tactics and search depth
still dominate at bullet levels at icc, but in world champs
they already don't since 99, which means a direct wrong conclusion.
c) you play nearly always random books
d) you get so many games online that real indepth
debugging of 1 game is hardly done.
e) if you play with your 'tournament book' online this means
that everyone is prepared for it in tournaments.
Logically from e, if crafty *only* gets tested online with
its tournament book, then you logically will have a major problem
at any tournament. Because under linux obviously the alternative
is not there.
This where DIEP's testing last few months was pretty bad, but
coming months is supposed to go better. Auto232 and not against
a bunch of progs which are online and never show up at tournaments,
but against the programs which will show up there!
>On July 29, 2002 at 08:25:57, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On July 28, 2002 at 21:37:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>Bob,
>>
>>ICC isn't serious. In fact i'm using a stupid book there and stupid
>>old versions of DIEP.
>
>Then your testing methodology is even worse than I thought. IE I _always_
>test the latest version of my program, because there is no sense in testing
>_old_ versions that have bugs. They have _already_ been fixed.
>
>As far as the book goes, so what? We are _not_ talking about book issues
>here, but about _tactics_. They occur _after_ leaving the book...
>
>
>
>
>>
>>It is the world champs which count. If you don't show up there,
>>there is no reason to do such statements even.
>
>
>
>Actually, I have showed up at _far_ more computer chess events than you have
>even seen, much less participated in. So that statement doesn't mean _anything_
>to me at all...
>
>
>
>>
>>>On July 28, 2002 at 14:38:25, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 28, 2002 at 12:54:10, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>DIEP - Crafty
>>>>world champs 2000:
>>>
>>>You base a _lot_ on one game. I can produce hundreds you have lost on
>>>ICC. So my question stands...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>please note that diep in 2000 didn't have much extensions. just
>>>>checks a little, this was one of those tactical games where crafty
>>>>makes a mistake which diep would never make. out of book it plays O-O
>>>>castling straight into the mate, instead of the forced move h5.
>>>
>>>Vincent, want me to post _several_ games where Diep castled right into
>>>an attack? I have seen _several_...
>>>
>>>
>>> DIEP 2000
>>>>also finds the move h5 *without* extensions. I remember crafty simply
>>>>didn't in 2000. While crafty still finds itself up a few pawns, i'm
>>>>already at a positive score:
>>>>
>>>>e2-e4 (2:00:00,2:00:00) book
>>>>c7-c5 (2:00:00,1:59:19)
>>>>g1-f3 (2:00:00,1:59:19) book
>>>>d7-d6 (2:00:00,1:59:06)
>>>>d2-d4 (2:00:00,1:59:06) book
>>>>c5xd4 (2:00:00,1:58:48)
>>>>f3xd4 (1:59:59,1:58:48) book
>>>>g8-f6 (1:59:59,1:58:21)
>>>>b1-c3 (1:59:59,1:58:21) book
>>>>a7-a6 (1:59:59,1:58:02)
>>>>c1-g5 (1:59:59,1:58:02) book
>>>>e7-e6 (1:59:59,1:57:44)
>>>>f2-f4 (1:59:59,1:57:44) book
>>>>d8-b6 (1:59:59,1:57:29)
>>>>d1-d2 (1:59:59,1:57:29) book
>>>>b6xb2 (1:59:59,1:57:16)
>>>>a1-b1 (1:59:59,1:57:16) book
>>>>b2-a3 (1:59:59,1:56:53)
>>>>f4-f5 (1:59:59,1:56:53) book
>>>>b8-c6 (1:59:59,1:56:28)
>>>>f5xe6 (1:59:59,1:56:28) book
>>>>f7xe6 (1:59:59,1:55:59)
>>>>d4xc6 (1:59:59,1:55:59) book
>>>>b7xc6 (1:59:59,1:55:43)
>>>>e4-e5 (1:59:59,1:55:43) book
>>>>d6xe5 (1:59:59,1:51:36)
>>>>g5xf6 (1:59:59,1:51:36) book
>>>>g7xf6 (1:59:59,1:50:43)
>>>>c3-e4 (1:59:59,1:50:43) book
>>>>f8-e7 (1:59:59,1:46:38)
>>>>f1-e2 (1:59:59,1:46:38) book
>>>>O-O (1:59:59,1:43:49)
>>>>b1-b3 (1:55:39,1:43:49) -1.40 12 10410289 02:08 5131791 (0) 11 -1.40 Rb1-b3
>>>>Qa3xa2 Rb3-g3 Kg8-h8 O-O Rf8-f7 Qd2-h6 Bc8-b7 Be2-h5 Be7-f8 Ne4-d6 Rf7-c7 Qh6xf6
>>>>Bf8-g7
>>>>a3xa2 (1:55:39,1:40:02)
>>>>O-O (1:55:12,1:40:02) -0.95 12 10069052 03:13 7721131 (0) 12 -0.94 O-O
>>>>Kg8-h8 Qd2-h6 Rf8-f7 Rb3-g3 Bc8-d7 Be2-h5 Ra8-f8 Bh5xf7 Rf8xf7
>>>>g8-h8 (1:55:12,1:35:22)
>>>>d2-h6 (1:55:12,1:35:22) -0.02 12 11084226 04:17 10175948 (0) 12 -0.02
>>>>Qd2-h6 Rf8-f7 Rb3-g3 Ra8-a7 Be2-h5 Qa2-c4 Qh6-e3 Be7-f8 Bh5xf7 Ra7xf7 Ne4-g5
>>>>Rf7-b7 Rf1xf6
>>>>f8-f7 (1:55:12,1:31:05)
>>>>b3-g3 (1:55:10,1:31:05) 0.08 12 10434337 00:44 1857642 (0) 11 0.08 Rb3-g3
>>>>Ra8-a7 Be2-h5 Qa2-c4 Bh5xf7 Be7-c5 Ne4xc5 Qc4xc5 Qh6-e3 Qc5xe3 Rg3xe3 Ra7xf7
>>>>Re3xe5
>>>>a8-a7 (1:55:10,1:30:13)
>>>>g1-h1 (1:51:41,1:30:13) 1.89 12 10632112 00:30 3252994 (0) 11 1.88 Kg1-h1
>>>>Qa2xc2 Be2-h5 Be7-f8 Bh5xf7 Ra7xf7 Qh6-h5 Rf7-e7 Ne4-d6 Bf8-g7 Nd6xc8
>>>>a2xc2 (1:51:41,1:26:00)
>>>>h6-h5 (1:51:36,1:26:00) 4.56 12 10335746 03:18 8038735 (0) 12 4.55 Qh6-h5
>>>>Rf7-f8 Be2-d3 Qc2xd3 Rg3xd3 f6-f5 Rd3-h3 Be7-d8 Ne4-d6 Bd8-f6 Qh5-h6 Ra7-f7
>>>>Nd6xf7 Rf8xf7
>>>>e7-f8 (1:51:36,1:20:27)
>>>>e2-d3 (1:47:16,1:20:27) 9.73 12 10345462 03:11 7465878 (0) 11 9.73 Be2-d3
>>>>Qc2-c3 Ne4xc3 f6-f5 Nc3-e4 a6-a5 Ne4-g5 Rf7-e7 Ng5xh7 Re7xh7 Qh5-g6
>>>>c2-c3 (1:47:16,1:17:54)
>>>>e4xc3 (1:45:35,1:17:54) 10.71 13 11309369 01:03 3009384 (0) 12 10.71 Ne4xc3
>>>>f6-f5 Nc3-e4 a6-a5 Ne4-g5 Rf7-e7 Ng5xh7 Re7xh7 Qh5-e8 Ra7-f7 Qe8xc8 e5-e4
>>>>f6-f5 (1:45:35,1:08:48)
>>>>f1-d1 (1:45:35,1:08:48) 14.34 14 25902144 08:35 24433268 (0) 14 14.34
>>>>Rf1-d1 Rf7-f6 Qh5-g5 Rf6-g6 Qg5-d8 Rg6xg3 h2xg3 Ra7-f7 Qd8xc8 Rf7-f6 Bd3xa6
>>>>e5-e4 Rd1-d6 Rf6-f7
>>>>f7-f6 (1:45:35,1:06:55)
>>>>h5-g5 (1:43:10,1:06:55) 14.80 14 12995655 00:07 6139846 (0) 14 14.79 Qh5-g5
>>>>Rf6-g6 Qg5-d8 Rg6xg3 h2xg3 Ra7-f7 Qd8xc8 Rf7-f6 Bd3xa6 c6-c5 Nc3-a4 Rf6-h6
>>>>Kh1-g1 Rh6-f6 Na4xc5
>>>>f6-g6 (1:43:10,1:01:45)
>>>>g5-d8 (1:43:10,1:01:45) 15.62 15 14419477 04:12 11490210 (0) 14 15.61
>>>>Qg5-d8 Rg6xg3 h2xg3 Ra7-f7 Qd8xc8 Rf7-f6 Bd3xa6 e5-e4 Rd1-d7 c6-c5 Nc3-a4 Rf6-h6
>>>>Kh1-g1 Rh6-f6 Na4xc5
>>>>a7-f7 (1:43:10,0:58:06)
>>>>g3xg6 (1:38:51,0:58:06) 18.97 15 12950942 02:51 8633112 (0) 14 18.97 Rg3xg6
>>>>h7xg6 Qd8xc8 Kh8-g7 Bd3-c4 Bf8-b4 Qc8xe6 Rf7-e7 Qe6-g8 Kg7-h6 Qg8-f8 Re7-g7
>>>>Qf8xb4 Kh6-h7 Bc4xa6
>>>>h7xg6 (1:38:51,0:56:03)
>>>>d8xc8 (1:36:42,0:56:03) 20.57 14 12149319 01:29 4515394 (0) 13 20.56 Qd8xc8
>>>>Kh8-h7 Bd3-c4 Bf8-e7 Bc4xe6 Rf7-g7 Rd1-d3 Be7-g5 Rd3-h3 Bg5-h6 Qc8-d8 Rg7-f7
>>>>Be6xf7
>>>>h8-h7 (1:24:00,0:46:53)
>>>>d3-c4 (1:24:00,0:46:53) 26.90 13 33172910 04:04 10950485 (0) 12 26.90
>>>>Bd3-c4 Bf8-g7 Qc8xe6 Rf7-f6 Qe6-g8 Kh7-h6 Rd1-d7 Kh6-g5 Qg8xg7 c6-c5 h2-h4
>>>>Kg5xh4 Qg7xf6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On July 27, 2002 at 20:36:26, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 27, 2002 at 07:50:19, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Actually everyone wonders for years already why crafty
>>>>>>is tactical so weak. It won't be long before you also
>>>>>>beat it in time to find combi's sooner.
>>>>>
>>>>>If it is so "tactically weak" why can't you or your program blow it
>>>>>off the board in games???
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 27, 2002 at 07:14:19, Mike Byrne wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><snipped>
>>>>>>>> singular extension..................0.75
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Does crafty use singular extensions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seems not to be very important here because
>>>>>>>movei without singular extensions seems to solve it faster
>>>>>>>(if you consider the fact that my p850 is an inferior hardware)
>>>>>>>and at smaller depth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Movei needs slightly more than a minute with p850(128 Mbytes hash)
>>>>>>>but Crafty17.14 on the same hardware needs almost 3 minutes and
>>>>>>>remember that movei does not use hash tables in an efficient way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[D]r6r/k4pp1/pq2p2p/1p1n4/3N3P/1R6/PPP1QPP1/2KR4 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>9 120 6585 8133249 d4b5
>>>>>>>9 242 7508 9423216 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6d6 d1d4 d5c3 b5a5 a7b7 b2c3 d6d4 e2f3 b7b6
>>>>>>>c3d4 a8a5 f3f7 a5a2 f7g7
>>>>>>>9 242 7755 9764522 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6d6 d1d4 d5c3 b5a5 a7b7 b2c3 d6d4 e2f3 b7b6
>>>>>>>c3d4 a8a5 f3f7 a5a2 f7g7
>>>>>>>10 296 9238 11782740 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6 a6b6
>>>>>>>e7d6 b6a7 d6d5
>>>>>>>10 296 9870 12649414 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6 a6b6
>>>>>>>e7d6 b6a7 d6d5
>>>>>>>11 360 17417 23221197 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6
>>>>>>>a6b6 e7d6 b6a7 d6d5 h8f8 d5d4 a7b7 d4g7
>>>>>>>11 360 18740 24983892 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6
>>>>>>>a6b6 e7d6 b6a7 d6d5 h8f8 d5d4 a7b7 d4g7
>>>>>>>12 358 26617 35920723 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6
>>>>>>>a6b6 e7d6 b6b5 d6d5 b5b6 d5f7 a8a7
>>>>>>>12 358 30895 41946016 d4b5 a6b5 b3b5 b6c6 d1d5 e6d5 e2e7 a7a6 b5b3 c6b6 b3b6
>>>>>>>a6b6 e7d6 b6b5 d6d5 b5b6 d5f7 a8a7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri
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