Author: Slater Wold
Date: 14:23:50 08/10/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 10, 2002 at 16:47:05, Michael Babigian wrote:
>{snip}
>>New position
>>[d]r1b1r1k1/1q3ppp/ppn5/2bNp3/P4B2/5Q1P/BP3PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1
>
>{snip}
>
>>Yes it is very good. For some rough comparisons, DB Jr had 16 chess processors
>>at 2M nodes per second each. Roughly 32M nodes per second. But then Hsu
>>claimed about 30% efficiency so make that 9M nodes per second. They took
>>about 2 minutes to find the +2.5 score (I am trying to locate this old email
>>to get the exact output and time but I only have about a million emails I
>>have sent over the past 7+ years so finding that one is non-trivial).
>>
>>In any case, you can probably compare them at 9M nodes per second times 120
>>seconds, vs Shredder at whatever time it took...
>>
>>One thing is to see if Shredder has found _the_ line yet. IE the line played
>>in the game was optimal. DB Jr had every move right for about 10 moves until
>>the PV ran out due to the hardware... so it saw what was really going to happen
>>pretty well...
>
>It took me a while to get around to examining this position, but I think it does
>illustrate how far ahead DB Jr was in 1996. A gave Shredder 6.02 a good 21
>hours on my dual Athlon 1800+ (768MB Hash) and it produced the following
>analysis.
>
> 8.01 0:01 -0.59 19.Be3 Be6 20.Rac1 Bxe3 21.Qxe3 Rad8 22.b4 f5 23.Bc4
>(561.326) 528.5
> 9.01 0:02 -0.59 19.Be3 Be6 20.b4 Bxe3 21.Qxe3 Rad8 22.Rac1 f5 23.b5 axb5
>(1.497.753) 518.2
> 9.03 0:03 -0.58++ 19.Bh6 Re6 20.Bg5 h6 21.Bh4 e4 22.Qg3 (1.768.791) 514.6
> 9.03 0:03 -0.45 19.Bh6 Re6 20.Be3 Nd4 21.Qh5 g6 22.Qh4 Ne2+ 23.Kh2 Nd4
>(1.944.656) 512.1
> 10.01 0:05 -0.51 19.Bh6 Re6 20.Be3 Nd4 21.Qh5 Bd7 22.b4 g6 23.Qh4 Ne2+
>24.Kf1 Bxe3 25.fxe3 (2.917.469) 513.0
> 10.02 0:06 -0.50++ 19.Be3 Be6 20.b4 Bxe3 21.Qxe3 Rad8 22.Qg3 Bxd5 23.Bxd5 b5
>24.axb5 Nd4 25.Bxb7 axb5 (3.181.395) 510.3
> 10.02 0:07 -0.42 19.Be3 Be6 20.Rac1 Bxe3 21.Qxe3 Rac8 22.Qg3 Kh8 23.b4 f5
>24.Bc4 (3.858.859) 508.1
> 11.01 0:16 -0.42 19.Be3 Be6 20.Rac1 Bxe3 21.Qxe3 b5 22.Qg3 Kh8 23.axb5 axb5
>24.Bb3 f5 25.Qe3 (8.086.388) 501.0
> 11.03 0:19 -0.41++ 19.Bh6 Re6 20.Be3 Nd4 21.Qh5 Bd7 22.b4 g6 23.Qg5 Ne2+
>24.Kf1 Nf4 25.bxc5 Nxd5 (9.726.667) 499.2
> 11.03 0:20 -0.41 19.Bh6 Re6 20.Be3 Nd4 21.Qh5 Bd7 22.b4 Bd6 23.Bb1 g6
>24.Ne7+ Bxe7 25.Bxd4 (10.099.781) 499.1
> 11.06 0:23 -0.40++ 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Qxf6 e4 23.Qxf7+ Kh8
>24.Bxf8 (12.105.226) 507.0
> 11.06 0:26 -0.05++ 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Qxf6 e4 23.Qxf7+ Kh8
>24.Bxe4 Nd4 25.Bxb7 Re1+ 26.Rxe1 (13.273.162) 509.8
> 11.06 0:41 +0.51 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Qxg7+ Kxg7 26.Bxb7 Bc2 (21.064.708) 513.7
> 12.01 0:54 +0.67 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Rg3 Bg6 26.Qxg7+ Kxg7 27.Bxb7 Ra7 28.Rd7 (28.398.743) 517.5
> 13.01 1:37 +0.73 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Rg3 Bg6 26.Qxg7+ Kxg7 27.Bxb7 (50.819.633) 520.3
> 14.01 2:43 +0.98++ 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Bxb7 Bxf6 26.Bxa8 Bxh3 27.gxh3 Rxa8 (85.465.818) 521.1
> 14.01 3:50 +1.48++ 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Bxb7 Bxf6 26.Bxa8 Kh8 27.Bd5 Bc2 28.Bxf7 (120.728.370) 523.7
> 14.01 5:10 +2.04 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Bxb7 Bxf6 26.Bxa8 Rxa8 27.Rf3 Bc2 28.Rc1 Bxa4 (163.099.548) 525.4
> 15.01 9:20 +2.00 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Bxb7 Bxf6 26.Bxa8 Rxa8 27.Rf3 Bxh3 28.Rxf6 Be6 29.Re1
>(297.246.494) 530.5
> 16.01 23:35 +1.98 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Ra3 Bxh6 23.Qxf6 Bf5
>24.Bxc6 Bg7 25.Bxb7 Bxf6 26.Bxa8 Rxa8 27.Rf3 Bxh3 28.Rxf6 Be6 29.Rh6
>(750.474.835) 530.1
> 17.01 50:05 +2.23++ 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bd7 22.Bxf8 Kxf8 23.Qxf6
>Re6 24.Bxe6 Bxe6 25.Rd6 Kg8 26.Rad1 Rf8 27.R1d3 Ne7 28.Rd7 Bxd7 29.Qxe7 f6
>30.Rxd7 (1.596.353.875) 531.1
> 17.01 69:48 +2.31 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8
>24.Bc6 f5 25.Bd5 Bf4 26.Re1 Be6 27.Rad1 Rd8 28.g3 Rxd5 29.Rxd5 (2.206.598.336)
>526.7
> 18.01 146:48 +2.39 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8
>Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Bd5 Bf4 26.Re1 Qf6 27.Rad1 Bd7 28.Qa3 Rd8 (4.656.973.467) 528.7
> 19.01 374:30 +2.43 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8
>Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Ra3 Bg7 26.Qd3 Kf8 27.Qe2 (11.909.898.262) 530.0
> 20.01 1230:57 +2.61 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Bh6 Bf8 21.Bd5 Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8
>Rb8 24.Qh5 Kg7 25.Ra3 Bf4 26.Bc6 Be6 27.Be4 Rd8 28.Qxh7+ Kf8 (38.781.207.562)
>525.0
>
>As you can see at depth 16 it believes 23 ...Bf5 is a better defense for black
>and later replaces 22. Ra3 with 22. Bxf8. Finally at depth 17 and above it
>settles on 21 ... Bxh6 as blacks best defense in this lost position.
>
>Your comments that the game line was optimal got me curious why Shredder came to
>a different conclusion. At your estimation of 9M nodes/second, Shredder would
>take about 36 minutes to do the work DB Jr did in 2. Granted the shape of the
>search tree is radically different and could account for the difference in the
>line, I continued the experiment further.
>
>I moved Shredder forward to analyze at blacks move 21. I gave it 3.5 hours at
>this move and it produced the following.
>
> 8.01 0:00 -0.06 21...Bd7 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Bxe6 Bxe6 24.Qg5+ Kh8 25.Rd8 Nxd8
>26.Qxe5+ f6 27.Qxf6+ Bg7 28.Qf8+ Bxf8 29.Bg7+ Qxg7 (535.380) 571.3
> 9.01 0:01 -0.06 21...Bd7 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Bxe6 Bxe6 24.Qg5+ Kh8 25.Rd8 Rxd8
>26.Qf6+ Kg8 27.Qg5+ Kh8 28.Qf6+ Kg8 29.Qg5+ Kh8 30.Qf6+ (1.100.522) 577.3
> 10.01 0:04 -0.07 21...Bd7 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Bxe6 Bxe6 24.Qg5+ Kh8 25.Bxf8 Rxf8
>26.Rd7 Qxd7 27.Qf6+ Kg8 28.Qg5+ Kh8 29.Qf6+ Kg8 30.Qg5+ Kh8 31.Qf6+ (2.800.298)
>580.0
> 11.01 0:12 -0.07 21...Bd7 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Bxe6 Bxe6 24.Qg5+ Kh8 25.Bxf8 Rxf8
>26.Rd7 Qxd7 27.Qf6+ Kg8 28.Qg5+ Kh8 29.Qf6+ Kg8 30.Qg5+ Kh8 31.Qf6+ (7.159.038)
>574.8
> 12.01 0:31 -0.07 21...Bd7 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Bxe6 Bxe6 24.Qg5+ Kh8 25.Bxf8 Rxf8
>26.Rd7 Qxd7 27.Qf6+ Kg8 28.Qg5+ Kh8 29.Qf6+ Kg8 30.Qg5+ Kh8 31.Qf6+ (18.086.566)
>571.6
> 13.01 1:28 -0.32-- 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Rxf8 23.Qxf6 e4 24.Ra3 e3 25.Rxe3 Rfe8
>26.Bxf7+ Kf8 27.Bxe8+ Kg8 28.Rxd7 (49.373.205) 557.2
> 13.01 1:44 -0.82-- 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Rxf8 23.Qxf6 e4 24.Ra3 e3 25.Rxe3 Bxh3
>26.gxh3 a5 (58.113.016) 554.9
> 13.01 5:12 -2.98 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Kxf8 23.Qxf6 Re6 24.Bxe6 Bxe6 25.Rd6 Kg8
>26.Rad1 Qc7 27.Rxe6 fxe6 28.Qxe6+ Qf7 29.Qxc6 Rb8 30.Rd7 Qf4 31.Qc2
>(174.047.507) 556.3
> 13.02 5:20 -2.97++ 21...e4 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Bxf8 Rxf8 24.Qd6 Qe7 25.Qxe7 Nxe7
>26.Bxa8 Bxh3 27.Bxe4 Bf5 28.Bxf5 Nxf5 29.Rac1 (178.766.713) 557.2
> 13.02 6:02 -2.84 21...e4 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Bxf8 Rxf8 24.Qd6 Qe7 25.Qxe7 Nxe7
>26.Bxa8 Bxh3 27.Bxe4 Be6 28.Bb7 Bc8 29.Bxc8 Rxc8 30.Rd7 Re8 31.Rad1
>(202.552.782) 558.9
> 13.03 6:09 -2.83++ 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Qh5 Bg5 25.f4
>(206.577.969) 558.4
> 13.03 6:12 -2.48++ 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Qh5 Bg5 25.f4 Qxe8
>26.fxg5 fxg5 27.Rf1 Kh8 28.Qxf7 (207.847.700) 558.5
> 13.03 6:22 -2.08 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Qd3 Bg5
>26.Bd5 Qf8 27.Re1 Qe8 28.Qg3 (213.440.345) 557.4
> 13.15 6:50 -2.07++ 21...Nd4 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Bxb7 Ne2+ 24.Kf1 Nxg3+ 25.Ke1
>(228.488.896) 556.5
> 13.15 7:10 -2.07 21...Nd4 22.Rxd4 Qe7 23.Bxf8 Qxf8 24.Rd3 e4 25.Bxe4 Ra7
>26.Bc6 Rd8 27.Rxd8 Kh8 28.Rxf8+ Kg7 29.Rxc8 (240.020.215) 557.2
> 14.01 7:44 -2.32-- 21...Nd4 22.Rxd4 Qe7 23.Bxf8 Kxf8 24.Rh4 Ra7 25.Rxh7 Be6
>26.Be4 f5 27.Bxf5 Qf6 28.Qa3+ Kg8 29.Qg3+ Qg7 30.Rxg7+ (258.088.329) 556.1
> 14.01 8:41 -2.82-- 21...Nd4 22.Rxd4 Qe7 23.Bxf8 Kxf8 24.Rh4 Ra7 25.Rxh7 Be6
>26.Be4 f5 27.Qh5 Qf6 28.Rh6 Qd8 29.Bxf5 Kg8 30.Bxe6 Rc7 31.Qxe5 (289.464.148)
>554.9
> 14.01 11:46 -3.41 21...Nd4 22.Rxd4 Qe7 23.Bxf8 Qxf8 24.Rd3 e4 25.Bxe4 Ra7
>26.Qg3+ Kh8 27.Qh4 h6 28.Rg3 Re6 29.Bf5 Rc6 30.Bxc8 Rxc8 31.Qxf6+ Kh7
>(387.983.968) 549.4
> 14.02 13:13 -3.40++ 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Kxf8 23.Qxf6 Re6 24.Bxe6 Bxe6 25.Rd6 Kg8
>26.Rad1 Qc7 27.Rxe6 fxe6 28.Qxe6+ Qf7 29.Qxc6 Rb8 30.Rd7 Qf5 31.Qd5+ Kh8 32.Kh2
>(435.243.778) 548.8
> 14.02 14:09 -3.05++ 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Kxf8 23.Qxf6 Re6 24.Bxe6 Bxe6 25.Rd6 Kg8
>26.Rad1 Qc7 27.Rxe6 fxe6 28.Qxe6+ Qf7 29.Qxc6 Rf8 30.Qxb6 Qf4 31.b4 Kh8 32.Rd7
>(468.274.897) 551.5
> 14.02 17:42 -2.96 21...Bd7 22.Bxf8 Kxf8 23.Qxf6 Re6 24.Bxe6 Bxe6 25.Rd6 Kg8
>26.Rad1 Qc7 27.Rxe6 fxe6 28.Qxe6+ Qf7 29.Qxc6 Rf8 30.Qxb6 Qc4 31.Qe3 Qf4 32.Qxf4
>(584.465.184) 549.8
> 14.03 18:33 -2.95++ 21...e4 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Bxf8 Rxf8 24.Qd6 Qe7 25.Qxe7 Nxe7
>26.Bxa8 Bxh3 27.Bxe4 Be6 28.Bb7 Bc8 29.Bxc8 Nxc8 30.b4 (611.571.563) 549.2
> 14.03 19:09 -2.93 21...e4 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Bxf8 Rxf8 24.Qd6 Qe7 25.Qxe7 Nxe7
>26.Bxa8 Bxh3 27.Bxe4 Be6 28.Bb7 Bc8 29.Bxc8 Nxc8 30.Rd7 Kg7 (631.983.159) 549.6
> 14.04 19:15 -2.92++ 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 (635.262.043)
>549.6
> 14.04 19:21 -2.57++ 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 Kh8 25.Qh5 Bg7
>26.Be4 h6 27.Rd8+ Qxd8 28.Qd1 Qxd1+ 29.Kh2 (638.302.731) 549.7
> 14.04 19:43 -2.03 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Qd3 Bg5
>26.Bd5 Bf4 27.Re1 Qb4 (649.720.458) 548.9
> 15.01 21:27 -2.10 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Qd5 e4
>26.Ra3 Bf4 27.Qd4 Be5 28.Qd8+ Qf8 29.b4 (700.748.819) 544.1
> 16.01 33:42 -2.17 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Bd5 Bf4
>26.Re1 Be6 27.Rad1 b5 (1.077.021.858) 532.6
> 17.01 60:17 -2.16 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Bd5 Bf4
>26.Re1 Be6 27.Bxe6 Qxe6 28.Qd3 b5 29.axb5 (1.902.106.464) 525.7
> 18.01 123:10 -2.16 21...Bxh6 22.Bxc6 Qe7 23.Bxe8 Rb8 24.Bc6 f5 25.Bd5 Bg7
>26.Rac1 Be6 27.Qe2 Bc8 28.b3 Bb7 29.Qh5 (3.849.522.935) 520.8
>
>Again, Shredder eventually gives up on 21...Bd7 and settles on 21...Bxh6 as best
>for black. Here again Shredder has enough time to out search the 1 billion
>nodes DB Jr. saw in 2 minutes.
>
>Finally I tried one more experiment by selecting the Shredder Brute Force
>engine. I figured this might better approximate DB Jr's search tree shape.
>Again analyzing from blacks move 21 after 14.5 hours and 17B nodes Shredder
>stayed with Bd7 to depth 18.
>
>Clearly Shredder understands what is happening in about 5 minutes on my
>hardware, but considering how much faster Deeper Blue was than DB Jr, this
>definitely illustrates how far behind the latest PC software is compared to the
>now disassembled monster. Although Crafty's play during the game may have been
>optimal, based on these outputs, I suspect CM5000's was not.
>
>FYI,
>Mike.
What was the exact line?
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