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Subject: Re: Challenge for everyone of you.Specially John Merlino.

Author: stuart taylor

Date: 16:48:57 08/15/02

Go up one level in this thread


On August 15, 2002 at 13:48:26, John Merlino wrote:

>On August 15, 2002 at 12:17:20, Sandi Ordinario wrote:
>
>>On August 14, 2002 at 14:39:03, John Merlino wrote:
>>
>>>On August 14, 2002 at 10:22:18, Mustafa wrote:
>>>
>>>>take a look at this position can CM 9000 find the move Nxe4!! the game was
>>>>played between Junior 7 and Nxe4!! was made now can any other program make this
>>>>move and junior 7 was using my own settings with some changes in the paramettre.
>>>>
>>>>[D]r1bq1rk1/p1bnn1pp/2p5/2P2pP1/3pp3/Q1N4P/PP1BPPB1/2KR2NR w - - 0 15
>>>>
>>>>Nxe4 was made by junior 7 which resulted a win for junior.
>>>
>>>Chessmaster 9000, on my humble PIII-600, does not see the move in under five
>>>minutes:
>>>
>>>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>>>0:00	1/3	-0.99	989		15.Nb1 a5 16.Qb3+ Nd5
>>>0:00	1/4	-0.93	3603		15.Nb1 a5 16.e3 Ne5 17.Qb3+ Kh8
>>>0:00	1/5	-1.31	10418		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.h4 Qe7 17.b4 a5
>>>0:00	1/6	-1.27	28323		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.h4 Qe7 17.b4 a5 18.e3
>>>0:01	1/7	-1.46	73898		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.h4 Qe7 17.b4 a5 18.e3
>>>					Bb7
>>>0:03	1/8	-1.46	172763		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.h4 Qe7 17.b4 a5 18.e3
>>>					Bb7
>>>0:09	1/9	-1.57	537204		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.Qa4 Qe7 17.Qxd4 Be5
>>>					18.Qc4 Qxc5 19.Qxc5 Nxc5 20.Nc3
>>>					Bb7 21.Nxd5 cxd5
>>>0:27	1/10	-1.57	1654378		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.Qa4 Qe7 17.Qxd4 Be5
>>>					18.Qc4 Qxc5 19.Qxc5 Nxc5 20.Nc3
>>>					Bb7 21.Nxd5 cxd5
>>>1:04	2/11	-1.69	3957291		15.Nb1 Nd5 16.Qa4 Qe7 17.Qxd4 Be5
>>>					18.Qc4 Qxc5 19.Qxc5 Nxc5 20.Nc3
>>>					Rb8 21.h4 Be6 22.Nxd5 cxd5
>>>2:22	2/11	-1.64	8680811		15.Na4 Rb8 16.h4 Nd5 17.b3 Qe7
>>>					18.e3 d3 19.Kb1 Bb7 20.Nh3 Rbe8
>>>5:01	3/12	-1.49	18388245	15.Na4 Rb8 16.h4 Nd5 17.b3 Qe7
>>>					18.Kb1 Rb5 19.e3 d3 20.Rc1 Re8
>>>					21.f4 exf3ep 22.Bxf3
>>>
>>>After forcing Nxe4 fxe4 Bxe4, here is what CM9000 says:
>>>
>>>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>>>0:00	1/3	-2.26	1754		16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Rxe2 18.Rhe1
>>>0:00	1/4	-2.02	5681		16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Ne5 18.Be3
>>>0:00	1/5	-2.02	16566		16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Ne5 18.Be3 Nc4
>>>0:01	1/6	-1.45	52299		16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Rxe2 18.Bd3 Rf2
>>>					19.Bc4+ Nd5 20.Nxd4
>>>0:01	1/6	-1.72	74589		16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Kh8 18.Qxd4 Be5
>>>					19.Qa4 Nxc5
>>>0:03	1/7	-1.87	200968		16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Qe7 18.b4 a5 19.Bxh7+
>>>					Kh8 20.Nf3 axb4
>>>0:08	1/8	-1.86	469598		16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Qe7 18.Nf3 Nxc5
>>>					19.Bxh7+ Kh8 20.Qc2 Bd7 21.Bg6
>>>					Qxe2 22.Nxd4
>>>0:22	1/9	-1.86	1398196		16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Qe7 18.Nf3 Nxc5
>>>					19.Bxh7+ Kh8 20.Qc2 Bd7 21.Bg6
>>>					Qxe2 22.Nxd4
>>>0:57	1/10	-1.86	3556990		16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Qe7 18.Nf3 Nxc5
>>>					19.Bxh7+ Kh8 20.Qc2 Bd7 21.Bg6
>>>					Qxe2 22.Nxd4
>>>2:46	2/11	-1.90	10654857	16...Nd5 17.Qd3 Qe7 18.Nf3 Rb8
>>>					19.Bxh7+ Kh8 20.Nxd4 Qxc5+ 21.Kb1
>>>					Ne5 22.Qe4 Rxf2 23.Bf5 Bxf5 24.Nxf5
>>>4:15	2/11	-2.00	16424662	16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Rxe2 18.Rhe1 Rxe1
>>>					19.Bxe1 Nd5 20.Rxd4 Qe7 21.Rc4 Ne5
>>>8:43	3/12	-2.05	34407631	16...Rxf2 17.Nf3 Rxe2 18.Rde1 Rxe1+
>>>					19.Rxe1 Ne5 20.Nxe5 Bxe5 21.Bxh7+
>>>					Kxh7 22.Rxe5 Bf5 23.Qf3 g6 24.Qb3
>>>
>>>So the difference is more than 0.5 pawns.
>>>
>>>jm
>>Hi John!
>>
>>Please interpret for me what CM9000 has analyzed from Mustafa's position that he
>>claims Junior7's move Nxe4 would win. I am lost among the trees. Does CM9K say
>>that it is not the best move and that if Junior played against it that Junior
>>would probably lose or draw? Thanks.
>>
>>Sandi
>
>You cannot make a judgement based on the information so far. Junior played the
>move and won (against a human, I believe). Chessmaster 9000 would not play the
>move, because analysis (admittedly on a slow machine, and not very extensive
>analysis at that) showed that Junior's move loses approximately a half-pawn in
>the eval.
>
>That is all you can say. Saying whether the move actually IS the best or not
>requires more analysis, preferably by many other engines....
>
>jm

In the meantime, what do the human experts say? And if Junior played it against
itself, would white indeed win? I don't think so.
 It looks like IF it is the best move, It is more like a regretable necesity,
though maybe it still offers some hope. But not a great winner.
Maybe Junior was wise to see that his position as not too good, making that move
a sporting chance.
S.Taylor



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